Please separate the JVG and Francis questions

I think you're giving him too little.
We're certainly a day late and a dollar short in the point guard department. No argument there. But I think one could give too much credit to a brilliant point at the expense of the coach as well. As good as a point may be, he still has to run his coach's offense. And the problem we seem to have here is as much offense as the point, in my opinion.

 

pgabriel, I don’t know why you always make it seem like everybody pinned everything on Steve. Maybe your Steve-love only allows you the see the criticisms about Steve, but EVERYBODY gets criticized. Steve, Yao, Cat, Van Gundy, Rudy, Kenny Thomas, Juwan, Cato, Ward, and I’m sure Mcgrady is about to get his fair share or criticism as well. This is not some type of conspiracy against Steve.

 

That's an unfair way of looking at the trade.

Without the trade, our backcourt for the next 5-6 years will be Francis + Mobley.

With the trade, our backcourt for the next 5-6 years will be T-Mac + Sura/MLE pg/steal in the draft.

I don't have too much faith in our front office in terms of FA signings and drafting. But the potential upside(in terms of chances of winning a championship) is definitely higher with choice two.

T-Mac came off the injury for a couple of these games, so his stat's a bit misleading. He's also doing better than Francis last season. So even though JVG has hampered him, it still hasn't offset the natural talent too much.

 

Pgabriel

Okay, let's get into some real discussion here. (I can't resist clicking, and besides, we're making progress here, so off the list you are).

I don't blame Franchise for not fast breaking. Many posters here do and I disagree with that. I do blame Franchise for not fastbreaking well. There's a distinction there. You are correct as to not having many players run with him.

He was forced to be a fast break starter (weakness) more often than finisher (strength), because the Rockets have been a terrible rebounding team the last few years, it forced Franchise to hit the boards, something he does better than most any guard in the NBA.

IMO, the Rockets downfall was the Eddie Griffin deal. 3 picks wasted, and Eddie wasn't ready to be a professional baller in Houston. I honestly believe if Eddie panned out, and we kept James Posey, we make a serious playoff run with that team growing together.

Franchise is a much better player than people here gave him credit for. However, he did continiously botch handling the fast break as a primary ball handler. That is why I wanted Brent Barry. A team of Yao, a good Eddie Griffin, Posey, Cat, Francis, and Barry and Mo nuclues would contend for the championship in my opinion.

But what Francis has now in Orlando is almost perfect for him. Dwight Howard ( a freakin high schooler! ) is coming close to matching Shaq's record for rookies starting their careers with double-digit rebounds. And of course, Grant Hill, a superstar who can shoot, create his own shot, and handle the ball on a fast break, and can finish too, and he's 6'8" with PG skills...(he is like Brent Barry combined with Posey and times 100).

Francis doesn't have to try to rebound as much (though he's averaging 8 a game) because Orlando has others who can: Cato, Howard, Hill, and so Francis can finish the breaks more, with Hill conducting them.

Francis also has more players who will run with him: Hill, Hedo, Cat, Stevensen, Howard.

The reason the Rockets don't run enough now and last year is because of Van Gundy.

But Francis didn't run the break well, and you most concede that. Instead of getting Barry and a good PF who can rebound and defend quick and strong PF's that are everywhere in the West, the Rockets traded for T-Mac.

The trade should be good for both teams, because T-Mac can do everything. Just watch him. He can shoot better, create just as well, IS TALLER, and he CAN run the fast break AS WELL AS finish it.

Francis will excel, but he has never improved his qbing the fast break skills as a Rocket, and I don't think he will in Orlando. He will still make too many turnovers if that is his responsibility. The thing is, he won't have to do that so much now that Hill is kicking ass.

 

I love how everyone takes there shots at me when I talk about Steve. I didn’t start this thread. This thread was started about how Steve couldn’t have done anything better on this team. I responded. I haven’t started any threads about how I miss Steve, or how Steve is doing well in Orlando, but someone took a shot at Steve to start this thread for no reason, other than the fact that all his bashers don’t look so smart right now. And I responded.

 

I got your back pgabriel,

you are sticking to your convictions and not letting anyone faze you.
I miss Steve too. He played hard and he was a Rocket for many years. You are right and people hate it. people aren't man enough to admit you're right.

You know what? people were saying things about the 1st championship team like Choke City. They brushed away the haters and showed them the truth.

Pgabriel, you are CLUTCH CITY.
I am CLUTCH CITY.

 

I loved Francis, but one thing I know is that 29 out of 29 GMs would have made the deal, I would have to. And it's not like that matters anymore, we can't go back.

But we can start recognizing problems that we usually blamed on Francis. Don't bash me on this, everyone knows on this BBS that Francis was the scapegoat for MOST of the problems last year. But we are still seeing the same problems, who's to blame now?

We still can't score, can't run a break, we are still turning it over (especially in crucial times). We're building leads and blowing them. But most important of all-we're losing, and losing to bad teams on top of that.

 

Let's get this straight, its not VG or his coaching that has been our problem thus far...it's been our guard play, or specifically, our point guard play. We've lost all of our "win-able" games due to poor ball handling in the waning minutes.

In fact, the PG problem is the source of all of our woes this season...from poor execution at end of games to inability to run a fast break.

However, this team is not a finished product, and, IMO, it still won't be when Sura comes back. If we had a legit, heady point guard, our record would be just fine and none of this VG bashing would even be taking place.

 

Kim, for the most part I agree with your post. I was watching an NBA classic game between the Nuggets and Rockets from 1990, and I admit that even though Rudy wasn’t the head coach at the time I may have been unfair to his teams and their fast break abilities. Honestly, I had forgotten how much the liked to run.

From watching that game, I also agree that Francis having to help out on the boards was a detriment to this team’s fast break. But that’s not the whole story. I watch Otis Thorpe and Hakeem throw pretty outlet pass after pretty outlet pass and it got me thinking about last season’s team.

The next good outlet pass Yao throws or Mo Taylor throws will be their firsts. When you look at some of those old fast breaks, there are two passes, Otis to either Sleepy or Vernon, Vernon or Sleepy, to Vernon or Sleepy or Buck Johnson, lay up. Very efficient. But it all started with that ball going to half court on the initial pass. Something you never see out of this team. And without that outlet, it allows the defense to catch up to the offense, and no more 2 or 3 on 1 fast break, which is a lot easier to score in than a 2 or 3 on 2. As an old basketball coach told me, you can get the ball up a lot faster passing than dribbling.

To Steve’s defense, when Walt and Posey especially were here, Steve was the one who got an almost half court length outlet pass to get the break started. And that’s why the break looked so good with those guys. But you need a guy to rebound and outlet, a guy to catch the ball and make the decision on who to pass it to on the wing, and the guy on the wing who finishes. But since Posey and Walt Williams left, we’ve only had the guys who finish or receive the outlet, but we don’t have the outlet passer, and we still don’t.

 

Wow! This sounds like last year all over again.

I'm not saying we don't have a PG problem, we certainly do. But it wasn't PG play that made us lose to the 2 worst teams in the league, it shouldn't have been close enough to let "poor ball handling" lose us the game.

 

You can call it fair or unfair; but it is a valid question. The deal wasn't McGrady for Francis - it was Francis plus a very good player in Mobley and a serviceable one in Cato for McGrady plus what has turned out to be utter trash so far.

And assuming that we're going to get a "steal in the draft" rather than a player that gets drafted and then steals money for 3 years (Nachbar, eg) is a bit of a reach to say the least.

As for Sura - I'll believe it when I see it. The guy is a mythical figure as of this point. Remember last year, when Adrian Griffin was going to step in and relieve JJ once he got over minor injuries -- that lasted 6 months?

I'm evaluating the trade as far as what we've actually gotten so far in return as far as productivity; (brings up another issue - I'd rather have McGrady for 80 games than Francis for 80; but I'm not sure that I'd rather have McGrady for 60 than Francis for 80...). Thus far we've gotten one player who has shown flashes but has also been hampered (in a similar fashion) by the deliberate offense we run, and the team is off to a lousy start.

 

First of all I don’t have to spin our sorry ass 4-6 record with two of the losses to two of the sorriest teams in the NBA. That speaks for itself.

As far as the trade, I’m really not arguing about whether the trade was a good trade or not a good trade. Frankly I don’t give a damn. I’m sort of an apathetic viewer this year and I’m not going to lie about it.

My rants will be more about Francis proving you guys wrong. Francis has never played on a team that brought out his strengths in Houston. The closest he came to it in Houston was his second year when he had a spry Hakeem rebounding and throwing outlets, a Walt Williams who could finish breaks and shoot off his drives and dishes, and also a Shandon Anderson who although sucked miserably, he could at least run the floor. Funny how Francis had his best season that year and we did have the best record ever not to be good enough for the playoffs.

But then we had to trade Kenny Thomas, a power forward who was a good compliment to Steve, because of stupid contracts. We got a guy in Glenn Rice who could shoot off Francis drives and dishes, but he never played. But I swear, and I haven’t looked this up, whenever Rice played and shot well the Rockets won. And we had to trade Posey, because we didn’t have enough money for him.

But the point is this, Francis will do well in Orlando, and you bashers will look silly. I told you that before this season started, I’m telling you that now. He went from one of the worst situations for him to one of the best. And that’s my only point, so you can talk about how this trade is best for the Rockets, you can talk about how McGrady is ten times the player Francis is, I really don’t care. Francis is going to prove you guys wrong, regardless of what this team does.

And I’ll say it again, funny how the role player excuse machine is now being rolled out for our new super duper franchise player, but for Francis it was he can’t get his sorry group of role players to play better. You only prove my point when you play that card.

 

BTW Clutch,

I know you're not a huge Francis basher and I even remember you saying you supported him up until last season. The part of the post about bashers is really directed towards that side of the board in general. You’re a pretty fair observer and I respect that. But starting off this thread the way Will did, and I did get the moderate/moderator part wrong, he is goinig to get reaction. I still feel the thread is out of line, this will be the topic of discussion throughout the season. Not only was it a major trade, Francis just creates discussion.

 

Oh, c'mon, man. That was a rant worthy of Howard Dean. Was there really ANYONE on this board who DIDN'T think Francis was going to do well with the Magic? We ALL believed Orlando was a great situation for him and wished him the best. We KNEW he was going to get his stats and play well. Are you claiming he's going to win a title this year? Are you claiming he is in fact a better player than T-Mac? Are you claiming that Rudy, who once made him the center of the offense, didn't use him to his full potential?

Look, I try to defend Van Gundy where I can (... for now), but I don't pop up in EVERY single thread that mentions his name and go on a tirade. You CAN take a break every now and then to defend the honor of Francis. In the past, I've admired your tenacity in sticking to your pro-SF3 convictions, but you're really approaching "tinman territory" now.

EDIT: Bah. Clutch sort of beat me to the punch.

 

Very good find, now show where I said this trade was a bad trade.

Edit: As far as me predicting the obvious. Its not just that, this team is still having problems associated with Francis, no fast breaks, not getting the ball to Yao consistently, turnovers at crucial times.

 

LOL - Very funny because it's true.

 

tinman terrority is the highest level a Rocket fan can reach.
To reach that terrority is a religious experience that can save the world.

Thanks!

 

I really think pga made his points clear. There is no question T-Mac is a better player than Stevie, but 1) It was wrong to blame everything on Stevie last year and 2) we underestimated his value and gave up too much for T-Mac.