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Playstation Meeting later tonight/early tomorrow (PS3 info almost guaranteed)

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by RC Cola, Mar 14, 2006.

  1. Coach AI

    Coach AI Member

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    There's a lot of things to comment on here, but all you guys have quite a discussion going, so I'll just limit it to a few things.

    First off, Microsoft is in this to win. What this doesn't mean, however, is that they will win it now. I firmly believe -and always have - that their strategy is to quite simply chip away at Sony until it crumbles. They started last gen, knowing they would suffer a financial loss but willing to do it just to get a foot in the door. They did. This generation, they are counting on Sony to fumble a few times and they will inch closer. They probably will. I think the gap between the two will significantly shrink this next generation.

    MS wants to slowly pull itself up the mountain until, suddenly, it is at the top. And Sony may well let them do it.

    Secondly, whether you think them blind or not, there are a lot of folks out there who will jock the Playstation brand name until it just isn't viable to do it anymore. Long before we had anything close to solid - just hype telling us that Cell will make us toast in the morning and a Killzone video that was closer to Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within than an actual game - you had the folks parroting "PS3 will be stronger" or "I'll wait for PS3" as though they had any actual grasp of that concept.

    What does that mean for this 'next gen'? Sony will be fine with the casual, mainstream folks who just want to play a game now and then. Sony will also be fine with the regular 'gamers' to the industry enthusiasts as well...but any mistakes the company makes, that's where you will start to see the cracks. And those casual, mainstream folks...what do they really want in a video game system?

    Sony - and Kutagari in particular - seems hell bent on pushing out the technological shock factor as much as possible. Matrix-like systems? 4D gaming? WTF? Sony is so willing to jam as much high-end junk into one box that they are losing sight of a lot of the other important qualities of making a successful gaming system. The hype machine, third party support and the firm grasp on the industry the PS1 gave them has allowed this to happen. But what if those things start to fade?

    Sony is betting big. Do people want the box with the word 'Playstation' on it to be their PC, High Def TV, Stereo, fridge and garage door opener all in one, rather than just a video game system. And are those folks willing to pay quite a bit for it?

    I think that is a high-stakes bet they have a very real chance of losing.
     
  2. RC Cola

    RC Cola Member

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    This isn't exactly what you meant I think, but if I understood things correctly, the PS3 might not be taxed in Europe (or at least not as heavily) if it is seen as a computer instead of a "luxury item" (like a game console). This might be why they're pushing a HDD with Linux for the PS3, among other things...well, (a small) part of the reason anyway.

    So in way, people in Europe might want to have a box with "Playstation" on it to be their PC since it might end up being a little cheaper that way.:)
    (again, I know that wasn't you point, just a small factoid I thought was interesting).
     
  3. Coach AI

    Coach AI Member

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    That is interesting. And, correct me if I'm wrong this may be different now, but I think of all markets Europe is very positive on Sony. They may be the most overwhelmingly supportive of Sony's moves.
     
  4. RC Cola

    RC Cola Member

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    Depends on your definition of being positive to Sony products I guess. The UK usually has good tracking, and Sony titles tend to dominate the charts maybe a bit more than average, with probably the Xbox and the 360 a little behind (though the occasional great DS game will rank high in the charts from time to time). Other countries in Europe tend to be more supportive of platforms like the DS (think Spain and France), or even the PC (thinking countries like Germany and Sweden). If I had to guess, I'd probably say Europe is a bit like the US market, only MS isn't quite as strong there (but not at Japan levels either).

    Going by the shipment numbers on the PS site though, Europe falls between Japan (the least) and NA (the most) in hardware and software shipments (in fact, I think the US is where the PS2 has its biggest lead in sales, believe it or not). This was still the same for the PS1 hardware, although the Europe and NA numbers were a little closer (like 40M and 40M for hardware, compared to about 41M and 38M for the PS2). The software is a bit different though, with about 372M PS1 games shipped to US to 303M in Europe versus 460M PS2 titles shipped to the US to 349M in Europe.

    Granted, that doesn't say much, but you could probably say every region is "pro-Sony" so to speak...except maybe Antarctica. Perhaps if there were better numbers for Europe, this would be easier to find out, but it is a bit of a challenge to figure out what trends Europe as a whole follow, at least for me anyway. I heard a while back that a worldwide tracking system might be set up in the next few years; if that is true, maybe that will make things easier to understand.

    And of course Europeans are loving the news, as well as those in Australia, Korea, and wherever else Sony's planning to launch the PS3 before Thanksgiving (forgot them all). I don't really approve of the move (much like the 360 launch, I don't think Sony will have enough units to spread throughout the world), but then again, I'm not in one of those regions. Well, at least there won't be any allotment issues this time around (IOW, no 100K PS3s sitting on store shelves in X while Y is sold out of them).
     
  5. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Ever since Nintendo ruled out extremely high end graphics, Sony has an unofficial monopoly in Japan for the next generation....

    No matter the spin from both sides, this delay won't let MS make a dent in the Japanese market. It's being sold cheaper there, and 360s are still piling up at the stores.

    It could indirectly make some people in the west realise how long they're going to have to wait for the PS3 come out, but the delay itself isn't that important.
     
  6. Oski2005

    Oski2005 Member

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    I don't study the game industry, but I'm pretty sure that high end graphics aren't the only thing that interest the Japanese like it does Americans and Europeans. If it was about graphics, then why didn't the X-Box do better there since it was more powerful? Why is the DS kicking the sh*t out of the PSP?
     
  7. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    You haven't seen enough Japanese p*rn - they're just weird, and let's leave it there.
     
  8. Oski2005

    Oski2005 Member

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    Damn, you just caused a repressed memory to surface. I need to kill my friends for showing me that video. I'll just say it involves eels, a$$ holes, and eating.

    **shivers**
     
  9. RC Cola

    RC Cola Member

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    Eh...I'm bored, so I'm going to post random sales charts from multiple regions that are somewhat recent:

    Spain:
    US (February NPD BTW)
    UK
    Code:
    -  1   FIFA STREET 2                            ELECTRONIC ARTS 
    1  2   BLACK                                    ELECTRONIC ARTS 
    -  3   THE SIMS 2: OPEN FOR BUSINESS            ELECTRONIC ARTS
    2  4   TOCA RACE DRIVER 3                       CODEMASTERS 
    -  5   LOTR: THE BATTLE FOR MIDDLE-EARTH II     ELECTRONIC ARTS 
    3  6   NEED FOR SPEED: MOST WANTED              ELECTRONIC ARTS 
    6  7   FIFA 06                                  ELECTRONIC ARTS 
    7  8   THE SIMS 2                               ELECTRONIC ARTS 
    8  9   PRO EVOLUTION SOCCER 5                   KONAMI 
    5  10  STAR WARS: EMPIRE AT WAR                 LUCASARTS 
    9  11  CHICKEN LITTLE                           VISTA GAMES 
    12 12  RUGBY 06                                 ELECTRONIC ARTS 
    4  13  SHADOW OF THE COLOSSUS                   SONY COMPUTER ENT. 
    14 14  CALL OF DUTY 2                           ACTIVISION 
    11 15  KING KONG: OFFICIAL GAME OF THE MOVIE    UBISOFT 
    -  16  WORLD SERIES OF POKER                    ACTIVISION 
    17 17  GRAND THEFT AUTO: LIBERTY CITY STORIES   TAKE 2 
    -  18  DUNGEONS & DRAGONS ONLINE: STORMREACH    ATARI 
    13 19  LEGO STAR WARS PLATINUM                  TT GAMES
    16 20  STAR WARS: BATTLEFRONT II                LUCASARTS 
    10 21  TORINO 2006 49GAMES                      TAKE 2 
    21 22  SONIC HEROES                             SEGA 
    -  23  MIDWAY ARCADE TREASURES: EXTENDED PLAY   MIDWAY 
    23 24  PROJECT GOTHAM RACING 3                  MICROSOFT 
    19 25  THE SIMPSONS: HIT & RUN                  UNIVERSAL GAMES 
    20 26  WWE SMACKDOWN! VS RAW 2006               THQ 
    30 27  RUGBY CHALLENGE 2006 S                   UBISOFT 
    15 28  MARC ECKO'S GETTING UP: UNDER PRESSURE   ATARI 
    26 29  TIGER WOODS PGA TOUR 06                  ELECTRONIC ARTS 
    28 30  SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG                      SEGA 
    29 31  GRAND THEFT AUTO: SAN ANDREAS            TAKE 2 
    31 32  DEAD OR ALIVE 4                          MICROSOFT 
    -  33  SONIC AND KNUCKLES                       EMPIRE INTERACTIVE 
    33 34  FOOTBALL MANAGER 2006                    SEGA 
    35 35  BUZZ! THE MUSIC QUIZ                     SONY COMPUTER ENT. 
    40 36  GUN NEVERSOFT                            ACTIVISION 
    24 37  THE INCREDIBLES BEENOX                   THQ 
    34 38  PRO EVOLUTION SOCCER 4                   KONAMI 
    37 39  PERFECT DARK ZERO                        MICROSOFT 
    38 40  CHARLIE AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY        TAKE 2
    Top 20 of Europe:
    Japan:
    Code:
    1	PS2	Monster Hunter 2 (Dos)	Capcom	463,501 	463,501 
    2	PS2	Sengoku Musou 2	Koei	301,044 	301,044 
    3	DS	Motto Nou wo Kitaeru Otona no DS Training	Nintendo	253,982 	1,338,839 
    4	DS	Eigo ga Nigate na Otona no DS Training	Nintendo	247,308 	479,078 
    5	DS	Oideyo Doubutsu no Mori	Nintendo	235,547 	1,975,015 
    6	DS	Nou wo Kitaeru Otona no DS Training	Nintendo	138,338 	1,638,180 
    7	PSP	Monster Hunter Portable	Capcom	125,285 	486,667 
    8	PS2	Genso Suikoden V	Konami	122,426 	122,426 
    9	PS2	Shin Onimusha Dawn of Dreams	Capcom	119,736 	308,644 
    10	PS2	Dirge of Cerberus: Final Fantasy VII	Square Enix	105,713 	471,208 
    11	PS2	Tourist Trophy	SCE	97,532 	97,532 
    12	PS2	Disgaea 2	Atlus	97,456 	97,456 
    13	DS	Mario Kart DS	Nintendo	72,252 	1,132,140 
    14	PS2	Nobunaga no Yabou: Kakushin	Koei	70,998 	70,998 
    15	PS2	Siren 2	SCE	69,999 	69,999 
    16	DS	Eyeshield 21 MAX DEVILPOWER	Nintendo	66,738 	66,738 
    17	PS2	World Soccer Winning Eleven 9 Bonus Pack	Konami	63,392 	84,852 
    18	PSP	Initial D Street Stage	Sega	51,742 	51,742 
    19	PS2	Bleach: Hanatareshi Yabou	SCE	49,265 	49,265 
    20	DS	Yawaraka Atamajuku	Nintendo	42,222 	1,181,858 
    21	GC	Super Mario Strikers	Nintendo	40,362 	134,863 
    22	DS	Machigai Museum	Namco	35,132 	35,132 
    23	DS	Tamagotchi no Puchi Puchi Omisetchi	Bandai	32,830 	1,002,576 
    24	PS2	CLANNAD	Interchannel	31,723 	31,723 
    25	PS2	Ar Tonelico	Banpresto	31,527 	88,477 
    26	PS2	Devil May Cry 3 Special Edition	Capcom	29,449 	29,449 
    27	DS	nintendogs (Shiba + Dach + Chihuahua)	Nintendo	28,356 	1,141,394 
    28	PS2	Exciting Pro Wrestling 7 SMACKDOWN vs. RAW	Yukes	28,071 	28,071 
    29	DS	Mario & Luigi RPG 2	Nintendo	27,799 	341,375 
    30	DS	Dare Demo Asobi Taizen	Nintendo	27,576 	439,016 
    31	DS	BLEACH DS	Sega	27,235 	62,133 
    32	DS	Pokemon Fushigi no Dungeon: Ao no Kyuujotai	Pokemon	25,179 	689,706 
    33	GBA	Pokemon Fushigi no Dungeon: Akai no Kyuujotai	Pokemon	23,219 	668,449 
    34	GBA	Yugioh Duel Monsters EX 2006	Konami	22,186 	22,186 
    35	GBA	Rockman EXE 6 Graygar / Fatlzer	Capcom	22,143 	549,976 
    36	PS2	Kingdom Hearts II	Square Enix	20,954 	1,096,679 
    37	GBA	Famicom Mini: Super Mario Brothers	Nintendo	19,500 	1,119,833 
    38	PSP	TALKMAN	SCE	19,173 	97,511 
    39	PSP	Nouryoku Trainer Portable	Sega	17,709 	262,554 
    40	PS2	Daito Pachislot Simulator Osu! Banchou	Daito	17,295 	229,077 
    41	PS2	NARUTO: Narutimate Hero 3	Bandai	17,266 	331,514 
    42	PS2	Siren (PlayStation 2 The Best)	SCE	16,060 	30,658 
    43	GBA	Pokemon Emerald	Pokemon	14,628 	1,708,037 
    44	PSP	Monster Kingdom Duel Summoner	SCE	14,451 	14,451 
    45	PS2	Gun Parade Orchestra	SCE	13,966 	60,032 
    46	PS2	Ryu ga Gotoku	Sega	13,592 	339,193 
    47	PSP	Gradius Portable	Konami	13,076 	13,076 
    48	GBA	MOTHER 1 + 2 (Value Selection)	Nintendo	12,807 	12,807 
    49	PS2	Kingdom Hearts Final Mix (Ultimate Hits)	Square Enix	12,640 	154,511 
    50	GC	Baten Kaitos II	Nintendo	12,348 	12,348 
    51	PSP	Minna no GOLF Portable (PSP The Best)	SCE	12,248 	107,238 
    52	PS2	Sengoku BASARA (Capkore)	Capcom	12,238 	12,238 
    53	PSP	Nakahara no Hasha	Namco	12,141 	12,141 
    54	PS2	Tales of the Abyss	Namco	12,126 	550,062 
    55	DS	Slime Morimori Dragon Quest 2	Square Enix	11,925 	263,012 
    56	DS	Super Mario 64 DS	Nintendo	11,877 	868,288 
    57	DS	Sawaru Made in Wario	Nintendo	11,672 	913,092 
    58	DS	Biohazard Deadly Silence	Capcom	11,512 	38,491 
    59	GBA	Final Fantasy IV Advance	Square Enix	11,425 	201,881 
    60	PSP	Genso Suikoden I + II	Konami	10,945 	10,945 
    61	DS	Dragon Ball Z Bukuu Ressen	Bandai	10,923 	236,380 
    62	PS2	Jissen Pachislot: Aladdin 2 Evolution	Sega	10,875 	106,185 
    63	GC	Mario Party 7	Nintendo	10,866 	422,364 
    64	PS2	biohazard 4	Capcom	10,704 	436,921 
    65	DS	Mushiking: Greatest Champion e no Michi DS	Sega	10,524 	153,642 
    66	PS2	Momotarou Dentetsu 15	Hudson	10,300 	240,435 
    67	PSP	Power Smash NEW GENERATION	Sega	10,268 	19,769 
    68	PS2	Simple 2000 Series Vol. 95 The Zombie vs. Kyuukyuusha	D3 Publisher	9,609 	9,609 
    69	PS2	Battlefield 2: Modern Combat	EA	9,599 	19,437 
    70	PS2	Minna no Golf 4 (PlayStation 2 The Best)	SCE	9,395 	74,093 
    71	PS2	Samurai Spirits Tenkaichi	SNK Playmore	9,375 	29,714 
    72	PS2	Last Escort	D3 Publisher	9,206 	18,978 
    73	PS2	Derby Uma wo Tsukurou! 5	Sega	9,123 	32,041 
    74	PS2	Kingdom Hearts (Ultimate Hits)	Square Enix	9,095 	106,391 
    75	PS2	Final Fantasy X (Ultimate Hits)	Square Enix	9,081 	71,719 
    76	GBA	Pokemon Fire Red & Leaf Green	Pokemon	9,041 	2,608,882 
    77	PS2	Star Wars Battle Front II	EA	9,016 	23,548 
    78	DS	Jump Superstars	Nintendo	8,593 	519,124 
    79	DS	Pokemon Trozei	Pokemon	8,532 	271,451 
    80	PSP	Geki Sengoku Musou	Koei	8,479 	99,736 
    81	PSP	Super Robot Taisen MX Portable	Banpresto	8,473 	82,355 
    82	DS	Harvest Moon: Corobockle Station for Girls	Marvelous Interactive	8,450 	69,806 
    83	PSP	Tales of Eternia (PSP The Best)	Namco	8,386 	44,103 
    84	DS	Choco Inu no Omise Patyshe and Sweets Shop Game	TDK Core	8,077 	8,077 
    85	PS2	Otometeki Koi Kakumei Love Revo	Interchannel	7,941 	29,545 
    86	GC	Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen! 4	Tomy	7,874 	294,201 
    87	PS2	Rogue Galaxy	SCE	7,688 	350,490 
    88	PS2	Dance Dance Revolution Strike	Konami	7,498 	7,498 
    89	GBA	Kotoba no Puzzle: Mojipittan Advance	Namco	7,390 	7,390 
    90	PS2	Warship Gunner 2	Koei	7,390 	7,390 
    91	PS2	Jikkyou Powerful Pro Baseball 12 Ketteiban	Konami	7,320 	109,776 
    92	PSP	Namco Museum Vol. 2	Namco	7,164 	7,164 
    93	PS2	Full House Kiss 2	Capcom	7,147 	7,147 
    94	PS2	Need for Speed Most Wanted	EA	7,088 	68,680 
    95	DS	Power Pro Kun Pocket 8	Konami	7,083 	98,807 
    96	PSP	World Soccer Winning Eleven 9 Ubiquitous Evolution	Konami	7,007 	233,276 
    97	PS2	Pachinko Pachislot Series Vol. 2	D3 Publisher	7,003 	26,085 
    98	PS2	Nobunaga no Yabou: Tenka Sousei	Koei	6,751 	24,303 
    99	PSP	Kinnikuman Muscle Generations	Bandai	6,677 	6,677 
    100	PSP	Boku no Watashi no Katamari	Namco	6,548 	71,830
    That was mostly for the European/Sony relationship I was talking about earlier, but I guess it could be used for the Japanese discussion going on too.

    I imagine the Japanese care less about graphics, although I think the lack of success in Japan for the Xbox/Xbox 360 and PSP mostly have to do with games that just don't appeal to them. So yeah, the best selling 360 games are a WWII FPS, a boxing game, a NFL game....and I think you see where this is going; to make matters worse, I think the MS marketing team kept using the term "HD" and "high-definition" in Japan, despite the fact that they call it "high-vision" (or something like that) over there.

    Kind of similar thing for the PSP. The best selling game so far has been GTA:LCS by far, with Madden and a few other games selling well here in the US. Monster Hunter Portable has been a nice hit in Japan as you can see in the charts, but that's really more or less all it has going for it recently. Really, the PSP has a very Xbox/western heavy lineup going right now, not exactly like its older brothers, the PS1 and PS2. I suppose if and when games like Tekken PSP, GT:portable, Final Fantasy: Crisis Core, Devil May Cry: Portable, etc., it might do a little better...assuming those games aren't vaporware. Perhaps the PS1 downloads will help as well. Either way, it will tough to duplicate the numbers the DS has put up in Japan. So many hits in such a small time for that machine.
     
  10. macalu

    macalu Member

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    haha, i remember reading about this vid with a link. i never bothered to click it although i've become somewhat desensitized to this kind of stuff. just the descriptions from the posters made me sick.
     
  11. RC Cola

    RC Cola Member

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    Some more industry reactions:
    http://www.gamespot.com/news/6146022.html
    http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2497&Itemid=2
    http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/15/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/
    Also, assuming you guys are up to it, I'd like to see some discussion about some of the things that got overshadowed by the launch news, such as:

    The new PSP features (PS1 downloads, video and voice over IP, flash support, GPS support, eyetoy support, etc.)

    The PSP core pack coming to the US for $199 ($199 PSP versus $149 DS Lite later in the year?)

    The PS3 online plan which seems to mirror XBL (voice/video chat, messaging, friend lists, game uploads/downloads, microtransactions, achievements, etc.) and apparently online play will be free. (will XBL become free, or at least become cheaper?)

    PS3 games being only on Blu-ray. (big shocker for me, but there has been little talk about it)

    The required/included 60 GB HDD (with Linux installed) for the PS3 that developers should have in mind when developing games (another shocker to me). Wonder if the HDD and the forced BR discs will make it more difficult to port games to the 360 and/or other systems.

    What you will do when the PS3 brings you the power of 4 dimensions instead of 3. :)

    To be honest, I cared much less about the launch details than most of the things I mentioned above (mostly the PS3 BR discs, the online details, the HDD issue, and PS1 games for the PSP).

    edit: Hehe...
    http://1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3148802 (about FFXII)
    Zelda and FFXII in November, along with the Revolution and the PS3. :)
     
    #131 RC Cola, Mar 16, 2006
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2006
  12. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    Serious financial publications not so optimistic about the PS3 delay...
    ________________

    Update 3: Sony to Delay Release of PlayStation 3
    ...

    Ken Kutaragi, the head Sony's video game division, made the announcement at a hastily called news conference after reports of the delay surfaced in the business daily Nihon Keizai Shimbun and other papers.

    The PlayStation 3 is critical for Sony Corp.'s profits and brand image, so a delay is seen as a major setback for the Japanese electronics and entertainment company as it struggles to mount a recovery after several years of poor earnings.

    Reports of the delay sent Sony's stock tumbling 1.8 percent to 5,470 yen ($46) Wednesday. Kutaragi announced the decision after the close of trading on the Tokyo Stock Exchange.

    Kutaragi said the company is still trying to finalize the copyright protection technology for the Blu-ray disc, the format for PlayStation 3 and next-generation video for the company's electronics gadgets in the works.

    Forbes
     
  13. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    I'm thinking of expanding my mutual fund holdings - better head over to Eurogamer.net to get some tips.
     
  14. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    Sorry, I post to waste time at work... and sure as crap don't delve into the financial studies of advisors all over the world over a single device. Meh, I guess I'd much rather make money then talk about other people's money... and I certainly don' bash companies like Merryl Lynch who's job it is to know these things because you know what... they may just know more about it then me, a dude with a high speed net connection and 10-15 minutes to spare.
     
  15. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    Great post...
     
  16. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    The reverberations continue to make waves across the market.

    The Singulus spokesman says they are unaffected by Sony's troubles, but jittery investors yank their money on fears Blu-ray troubles may hinder the emerging market.

    So Singulus, Sony's partner in Blu-Ray development takes huge stock hit...
    ____________

    Reuters

    Singulus shares fell 4.2 percent to 14.68 euros by 1226 GMT, making them the biggest decliner on Germany's TecDAX technology index, after S&P and traders said the PlayStation 3 delay could weigh on Singulus shares.

    The PS3 will include a Blu-ray disc drive, and is expected to be a catalyst for boosting the popularity of the new format.
     
  17. Rocket G

    Rocket G Member

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    The Japanese are still very nationalistic, also.

    It's not just about the games. There's a good reason Sony & Nintendo outsell MS in Japan, and it has a lot to do with where Microsoft is based.
     
  18. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    That is the difference between Microsoft and Sony, if the PS3 bombs Sony is nearly dead... if the 360 bombs Microsoft is still flying high, they just have a black eye. Sony isn't as diverse a company as Microsoft is and they certainly don't have the money coming in from other places like Microsoft does to keep their gaming wing afloat, and this is why the delay hurts Sony even more. Sony is betting nearly their entire company on the success of the PS3 while Microsoft is hoping to just pad their wallets a bit more.

    Every 360 that is sold puts Sony farther and farther in the hole and that is why financial instituions aren't thrilled with the delay. Microsoft doesn't expect to overtake Sony in this generation of the console war so the amount they chip away at Sony's lead is more up to Sony then it is Microsoft. Sony has fallen on hard times over the past decade or so with the increased competition in the consumer electronics sector and without the success of the PSX and PS2 they would be nowhere near where they are now, so their success of the PS3 is far more important to them then the 360's success is to Microsoft.
     
  19. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    I wish more Americans thought that way... then we wouldn't have our major car manufacturers cutting hundreds of thousands of jobs :-(
     
  20. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    Singulus was down 3.46% today... and has dropped steadily the last two trading days.
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=SNG.DE
     

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