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Playing Off The Ball

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Rocket River, Jan 10, 2021.

  1. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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    Wins matter ALL THE TIME.

    The fake narrative that wins only matter for championships ignores the reality that regular season wins are REQUIRED to even get to the postseason.
     
  2. dmoneybangbang

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    Not sure what happened to EGO offensively these past few years, but he should be able to drive and kick. Wall is doing Wall things as he gets back up to NBA level after missing so much time. Wall is still an unknown, but very unlikely to live up to that contract.

    I would expect Harden to be the assists leader since he is still the primary ball handler.

    Also Foggy's vids are showing opposing defenses increasingly sagging off of Harden.
     
  3. J Sizzle

    J Sizzle Member

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    Y'all argument essentially boils down to: Because his teammates can't make any plays, the greatest offensive player in the league should not make himself an offensive threat when they have the ball.

    In which case...okay!
     
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  4. dmoneybangbang

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    Well sure, but in spite of all those wins Harden will probably not be on this team by the start of next season.
     
  5. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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    Let's not exaggerate please.

    Opposing offenses (plural) is really Alex Caruso from previous game.
     
  6. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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    That is your life preserver isnt it?

    I worry about you man.
     
  7. dmoneybangbang

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    Quite the projection. You still are avoiding the writing on the wall.
     
  8. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    Not sure what your point is. The fact is that he's incredibly efficient at ISO and it generates lots of open shots.

    Why would you cut your usage of one of your most efficient weapons in half? If you do, then you need to be able to replace it with something at least equally efficient. So far we haven't. What any other team does isn't relative. Those teams don't have anyone who can do what Harden can do. So you're losing what 7 isos per game? So what have we replace those with?

    We have a whole slew of spot up shooters. Do you really believe that they are going to shoot better if there's two passes first and then they receive the pass for the open shot from someone other than Harden? Why would you want Gordon, Nwaba, Tate or the like delivering a pass rather than Harden?

    It's not like we're creating other type of scoring opportunities for those guys. So why not have the ball in the hands of your most efficient player and the guy who's the best there is about creating open shots for teammates? If we had prime Shaq, would you not post him up continually just because he was already posting up more than anyone else?

    I'm confused on how this is suppose to be helping us. Does anyone see us creating any different type of shots for anyone on the team? Harden can iso and be uber efficient and he can create more open shots for teammates than anyone else. How is 3 passes by our role players to try and get the same spot up 3 a better idea?

    If you read CF.NET, you'd think that we're running the old Spurs offense and Harden is refusing to participate. Who on the Rockets is doing any cutting? Who's running off of screens to get shots? Our guys are still camped at the 3 point line waiting for someone to find them. How is those guys job any easier by have less talented passers try to find them and get the ball to them?

    Generally, good teams run their offense through their best players. If something works then you keep running until the opponent can stop it. I always laugh when people say that we need to be less predictable. Why? It doesn't matter if the other team knows what you are doing if they can't stop it. Everyone in the Western hemisphere knew that Stockton and Malone were going to run pick and roll. The fact that the Rockets were going to throw it inside to Olajuwon wasn't a secret. Knowing what's coming and being able to stop it are different things.

    Even when we lost to the Lakers last year, it wasn't because they knew what we were going to do. Harden averaged 30 and was super efficient (67% TS%) and we generated a ton of open 3s. We lost to a better team.
     
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  9. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    HEFTY!!!
    Rocket River
     
  10. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    The difference is that when Harden has the ball he can always generate an open shot - for himself or someone else.

    We can't create a comparable number of spot up 3s for Harden. Creating open shots for teammates is a skill. It's the advantage that we had over the Warrriors. The GSW had much better shooters but they couldn't generate the same number of open 3s. Even though we didn't shoot as well as them , the math worked in our favor.

    Here's and article explaining how we generate open shots. It's not done with misdirection. The ability to create open shots is a big thing and not that easy to do.
    https://www.nba.com/stats/articles/how-do-the-rockets-keep-getting-open-3-pointers/
     
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  11. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    So if he makes a catch and shoot motion and they still dont find him, what's the difference? Like I don't really get the notion. If these guys could actually find him at all, it would be one thing. Wall found Harden a bunch of times in the indiana game and he didnt shoot because he wasnt ready for them. Because no one usually finds him. That should be fixed. But teammates dont usually find him Even Wall has messed up a few times trying to get it to Harden. So I ask again, what is the difference? He's right there get him the ball.
     
  12. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    I think you're overly focused on short term results. This is a new team, and players are trying to figure out how to play with each other. Harden is doing the right thing by allowing new talented additions like Wall and Wood more touches rather than relegating them to spectator status. Our offense may not be as efficient right now. But there is a good reason for trying to diversify our offense and create more threats on the floor. I'm totally fine with that direction. It's a long season, so I think we should be patient.
     
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  13. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    Ok, exactly what new threats are we creating? Wood creates an option that we didn't have before but he also works perfectly well under last years system.

    I don't see any new options being created. We're doing the same thing but trying to have a different player deliver the pass.

    Look at the rotation guys from last year. What are they doing different? PJ is spotting up in the corners, McLemore is spotting up from behind the arc, Gordon is playing the same and so was House. How has (or will) anything become easier for them?
     
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  14. dmoneybangbang

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    What is Wall supposed to do? It's not a coincidence we are on our 3rd point guard in a matter of 3 years.

    There's a disconnect between the team results of the last several years and Harden's offensive output.
     
  15. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    Doing similar things, but with different players, is not nothing. Defenses will have to react differently depending on who's running the play and which player is on each spot on the floor, even if it is the same play. Beyond that, when incorporating new players into a team, it is good to give them more looks to increase the comfort level of everyone playing off of one another.
     
  16. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    Bro...this is basically just hoping it works. Defenders know how to react, they cant shoot so you sag off them. Easy, very easy. He just showed you the numbers, all we've done is basically created worse shots that you "Hope" will be efficient in the playoffs.
     
  17. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    So in theory, we would be unstoppable if we had those shooters AND Harden's play making, right? But we don't have the elite shooters.

    Can we generate open shots in a comparable rate using other methods than Harden ISO so much? First of all, diversity is always better than predictability, especially in the playoffs. Also, at least in theory, Harden passing off to a so-so shooter may not be as efficient as him being at the receiving end of the pass. So it goes back to whether you can create shots without heavily relying on Harden's isolation.
     
  18. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    We've been one of the most successful teams in the league the last few years. Not sure what you're talking about.

    Last year Harden consumed 36.3 possessions per game. That leaves an additional 78 possessions for teammates. That's not enough for Wall?

    Harden was #2 in the league in usage last year and WB was #6. There's plenty of possessions left to go around.
     
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  19. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    What's the problem that we're trying to solve here?

    We got a ton of open shots in past years. So the solution to our problem is to find a way to hopefully get as many open shots as we were already getting?

    If we weren't getting open shots then your argument would make sense but that's not the case.
     
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  20. dmoneybangbang

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    So successful Harden signed an extension and we had no drama over this offseason.....

    Basketball isn't played in a vacuum.
     

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