thacabbage sometimes i wonder if any of these guys actually have played basketball. and i don't mean on the computer. there are guys on the street that can - AND HAVE - embarrassed shaq. there are guys on the street that can - AND HAVE - embarrassed tons of nba players. and beaten them. what a lot of "in-the-box-thinkers" fail to realize is that there are guys on the streets that have 10X the ability as some nba players but for various reasons (drugs, family, ignorance, etc.) never make it out of their neighborhood. being in the nba is not just a matter of being the best of the best. i can guarantee that. i'm not saying that the "ballers" would spank the nba's best time after time. but i'll tell you this, in a let's say, 10 game series of games to 15 or 20, they'd probably pull out at least 3 of them. if it's nba's scrubs (i.e. bullard-esqe players) i'd give the ballers at least 7 games.
Verse: Agreed. I'm starting to wonder that myself. RocketExpert: If you want to disagree with some of my more extreme points, then fine, I can somewhat understand, but to say that "the 5 worst position players in the NBA could beat the 5 best playground players" is just ridiculous. Look. I think it is very fair to say that about 75% of the players in the NBA are specialists. The Matt Maloney's of the world who feed off of great players. What do GM's do? They get Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley, and Maurice Taylor and surround them with 9 specialists/role players. These specialists are here to play a specific role and follow instructions. Without the stars they are as useless. Just because these specialists are in the NBA does not mean they are more talented than playground hoopers. A team of Jason Collier, Matt Bullard, Danny Ferry, Bryce Drew, and Matt Maloney wouldn't score a single point against a playground team. For whatever reason, these guys didn't get into the NBA, whether it be drugs, attitude problems, etc. That does not mean they aren't talented. There is more to basketball than NBA Live 2001. ------------------ Mo money, Mo problems...
TheCabbage, i'm kinda surprised you would say that Bullard and the boys couldn't score on a pick up court. With Bully's hieght, he could stand at the 3 and shoot over most street guys. I agree with Hoop-T, guys like Sean Rooks may not bring it up court in the nba, but in a street game, I can't imagine nba players continually dribbling it off their foot. ------------------ "The road to hell is paved with Republicans."
In a real game of Cabbage's NBA team vs. the best street ballers, I have to say- NBA- 115 Streetballers- 70 ------------------ "You'd better put some ice on that". - Bill Clinton, giving first-aid advice to Juanita Broderick after he raped her.
Sorry - I read a lot of knowledgeable posts by you and I guess you just want to emphasize your point, but this statement is not less ridiculous than any statement made by RocketExpert in this thread. They might lose (I don't think they would, I think 115-70 for the NBA players sounds realistic), but to say they would not score a point... [This message has been edited by Det The Threat (edited September 11, 2000).]
Ok, first of all my girlfriend is from the Bronx where you can argue that the best street ball is played. This summer, I went to a tournament in the Boogie Down South Bronx and saw some athletic demons do stuff I have never, ever seen in my life. But, you can bring me any guy from this area, any guy from your area, any guy from any country or any planet, and I am willing to bet that a team of Dream, Kemp, Pippen, Payton and Jordan...all in their primes, would destroy any team, anywhere at any time under any circumstance. The NBA best vs street ball best? In anyway you want it: one on one, 2 on 2, 2 on 3, 4 on 1...anyway you want it, the NBA will win. Just on simple fitness, the NBA players will wear them out. Can you imagine trying to guard Dream down low over and over and over? How punishing is that? And to me, the game is alot faster on the hard courts than in any gym. And that will further enhance the athletic ability of the NBA players and make them even faster. Imagine trying to go around Gary Payton? Or trying to dribble by Jordan or Pippen? Trying to get past Kemp? I want to see a street baller try and dunk or go around someone 6'10", 275 pounds of solid muscle, faster than most track athletes, quicker than most point guards and more fierce than most jungle animals. If that were to ever happen, I would eat my right foot. Now, put a slow footed player with just a jumpshot or minimal low post moves out in the Boogie Down and he will get eaten alive. But, the best of the NBA played streetball coming up anyways so... The best of the NBA will beat any streetballing team anywhere. ------------------ I Want To Thank God For Making Me A Rocketfan
I gotta go with cabbage mostly on this issue. I outright refute anyone who claims that the GREATEST streetballers that don't have an NBA contract are less talented than 90% of the guys in the NBA. If you think that, then I agree with cabbage, verse, and everyone else that you have never touched a basketball other than the time you bought one from Champs and sat outside the team bus trying to get an autograph from Bryce Drew. While the NBA certainly, without a doubt represents the most QUALITY brand of basketball, by far the best in the world, it's outright foolish to discredit streetballers as having any notable skill. Streetball has a beauty and majesty of it's own, which many of the great NBA stars of all time respect and honor, including in our own era. Unfortunately, in recent years, because the modern NBA players is more pampered and celebrity conscious, the gap between the NBA and the street has widened considerably. However, understand that there is AMAZING talent on the street. Things that would make your eyes pop out if you ever saw it in an NBA game. The difference is structure. Streetball is all about improvization and skill, largely on an individual basis, but not always so. Someone mentioned the all-star game earlier, and how everything looks so out of sync. NBA players aren't used to that type of game. Day in, day out, they play within a structure, a well oiled system with defined roles and parameters. Deviate from that system and you look foolish, your team suffers, and you ultimately fail. Streetball is more fluid. Rather than one central thinking unit and philosophy, you have 5 individuals flowing and working together. Any practiced NBA squad would mop the floor against a streetball team. Structure simply performs better in the long run. But bring in 12 NBA all-stars who don't play together on a regular basis, don't give them familiar and practiced system, and we have a different game. The NBA is like Mozart. Beautifully constructed pieces to make a masterful whole. Streetball is like Jazz. Individuals coming together to make something special. As far as why streetballers who are extremely talented not getting into the NBA, well it's as simple as structure. Most guys on the street just can't play within a system for whatever reason. Some find it too confining, some just don't have the mental maturity and intelligence it takes to play on that level. But put them out where they're free to perform, and you've got a whole different game. ------------------ "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and STATISTICS..." - Mark Twain -
Allow me to put my 3 cents in (adjusted for inflation and cost-of-living increases). 1) For those of you thinking that there aren't players on the street that are better than any NBA players, put your crackpipe down. There are. If you're trying to tell me that there's no talent out on the streets better than Matt Maloney, you're out of your mind. I agree with others that for whatever reason, most of this talent doesn't make it to the NBA because they simply endear themselves to the "me" attitude of the street game. The team concept doesn't matter or isn't very important to them. That just doesn't work in the NBA unless you are Michael Jordan (and even he learned to play on a team instead of an island before he won a championship). 2) Any 5 NBA scrubs can beat the best 5 street ballers? Err... no. Want proof? Look no further than Steve Francis' off-season pick-up team. According to hoopstv.com, that team had 6 NBA players on it including Steve, Cuttino, Jerome Williams, and Moochie Norris. A "street legend" named Curt Smith lit up everybody and their Christmas tree on Francis' team for 63 points. He's 5'9" and nobody could stop him. 3) Still don't believe it? How about an interview with Major Jones (former Rocket and NBA player for those that don't know) in which he basically said that the players at Fonde can hang with the NBA players that show up there. The link is below. Pay close attention to when he says "You get some local guys who've played a lot - they might come in and end up winning all day, pros or no pros". He also makes mention of the fact that Dwayne Rogers, a legend at Fonde, was a player that in his prime could not be guarded. Period. This coming from a guy that's seen several NBA players play on that court against street ballers. He also Dwayne had "a little too much street in his game to go to the next level". http://www.hoopsnation.com/top5/fonde.html 4) Gary Payton has said in interviews that he wasn't the best player to come out of his neighborhood. There were others better. 5) I read an article a few weeks ago in which Walt Frazier said that the playground ballers shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as NBA players. He said the playground game lets you get away with a lot of stuff (like traveling; I had to stop from chuckling when I read that). That being said, Walt Frazier once took a team that included Willis Reed to a Rucker tournament. They were knocked out in the first round. If I remember the article correctly, Frazier said that since the playground stars had nothing to lose, they were up for the game while the NBA players didn't think much of it. Yeah, right, Walt... saving face is nothing to NBA players. 6) In the same article I mentioned in #5 above, Tiny Archibald (yes, that one) was interviewed. He said he believed the hype of the playground because he was there. He said he once saw Joe Hammond scorch somebody for 80+ points and the competition was pro-caliber competition. 7) Bernard King (yes, that one) was interviewed in the same article. He said much of the hype is true when it comes to the truly superstar playground players. He said he freaked out once when he saw a playground legend (can't remember who) pick a quarter off the TOP OF THE BACKBOARD to win a bet. He said that there were several players he played against that were great but couldn't get out of the "me" concept and into the "team" concept and that's where they failed. That's why they never did nor would they ever become stars in the NBA. I think the athleticism on the playgrounds amongst the truly top caliber players is every bit as good as in the NBA. I think most of these guys, however, have never been coached or they're so legendary in their own (and others') minds, that the lack of a team concept or their neglect to learn it causes them to fail. My personal opinion is that somewhere down the line there will be a competition between the NBA and the street players. My guess is that the NBA will win, but that doesn't diminish my respect for some of these guys on the playgrounds or their talents. I still say there are several that are better players than some of the stiffs we have in the NBA now. ------------------ Falk that Mo Fo!!!
I think it has to do with the setting really. If it's a heads up one on one thang there a plenty guys in the league that will get there NBA feelings hurt. If it's a stuctured situation in a arena with NBA refs I think the NBA players will win. If it's summer league game with college refs or homeboy-corner-local refs street-ballers will win. Did y'all just not read were Curt Smith D.C. street legend gave our bloved Steve Francis and Cuttino Mobley 62points and won the Championship game at the buzzer this summer at the Kenner league. Now Curt played college ball and is definetly good enough to be in the pros. Whether you make it to the league is about luck and politics. Thats one thing I can say about the Rockets they get there players from all walks of life small schools, cba, big time programs,etc. ------------------ ballplayer [This message has been edited by ballplayer (edited September 11, 2000).]
Someone mentioned Rafer Alston in this thread. I found the following article on him. Since the person/organization that decided to post it hadn't discovered "paragraphs" yet, you'll get a headache trying to read it. But read it anyway, it's really mythical how these playground legends get built up. It's a great read. Especially the part about Stephon Marbury admitting Rafer broke him down and says "you know it's coming" referring to Rafer humiliating you sometime during the course of a game. I especially liked the part when Anthony Mason refused to guard him because he was afraid to get embarrassed. LOL! http://members.tripod.com/~Rchat/slam.html ------------------ Falk that Mo Fo!!! [This message has been edited by Dr of Dunk (edited September 11, 2000).]
I disagree with you big time on this D0D. If these clowns are so good, why aren't they in the NBA. Don't give me that crap about lazy or failing grades in school. If these clowns were that good, the NBA would get them in the league no matter what. They make one good move, or a big time dunk and they are a legend. There is so much more to basketball than dunking or breaking someones ankles with a crossover. Honestly, I am surprised at you. I thought you had more knowledge of what it takes to be a team player than these ballhogging playground hoopsters. ------------------ In order to be a success in life, you need 2 things: 1. Don't tell everything you know.
You guys have been drinking heavily. Gary Payton is not the best player from his neighborhood? He may want to pay homage to his streetball friends by saying there is somebody better, but its still a lie. Gary Payton is arguably the best player in the world. Don't listen to NBA players who want to heap compliments on their friends from back home. If a streetballer is NBA caliber, and has NBA contacts, then the streetballer WILL get a NBA tryout. NBA money brings the BEST players to the NBA. Lloyd Daniels was a streetball legend, but in the NBA he was just another decent shooter that could not play defense. Lloyd is a perfect example of why most of the arguments in this thread can be classified as somewhere between flawed and inane. Basketball, by definition, is a full court 5 on 5 game, and unconditioned athletes need not apply. Basketball is not about who is the best one on one player, because good teams play great TEAM DEFENSE, and selfish players get lost in their egomania. Basketball does not allow for flagrant fouls or taunting, but is a sport where the most graceful athletes feed off the greatness of their teammates. Collier, Ferry, Drew, Maloney, and Bullard would demolish your best streetballers because by the second quarter of the game, the NBAers would have the discipline, basketball smarts, conditioning, and selflessness to find a way to make their team work together. BTW, don't give me any arguments about 15 point games, half court concrete games, games without fouls called, or unique outdoor conditions- THAT IS NOT BASKETBALL. Those who disagree with me operate on the mistaken premise that NBA scouts don't find the best players. You are wrong. The best basketball players make it to the NBA. ------------------ http://www.nba.com/theater/video/taylor_m_dunk_120299.mov
A perfect example of the silly hyperbole in this thread comes from the Doctor of Dunk. He uses Curt Smith as an example of streetball greatness. Please read the following bio of Curt Smith, who "nobody could stop". Curt is a good player, who was the 8th leading scorer in the IBL. (that is a league for players who can't make it in the NBA, if you did not know). Smith, a Washington D.C. native, was selected as the area’s high school player of the year in 1989. After graduating, he headed west to attend Compton Junior College where he played under coach Lee Porter from 1991 to 1992. Smith was again honored for his abilities on the court when he was selected as the California Junior College Player of the Year in 1992. From there he moved on to Drake University, where he spent the 1992-93 season playing for Coach Rudy Washington. Professionally, Smith has played in Finland for the Topo team in the 1997-98 season, and most recently played for the IBA Champion Des Moines Dragons. There he averaged 20.2 points per game (8th in scoring average), 3.3 rebounds per game and 7.0 assists per game. Smith also holds the 99-00 record for points scored in a game with 41 vs. Magic City on March 12th. He was selected to the IBA’s 3rd team this season. It looks to me like Curt Smith tried for 10 years to make it in the NBA, BUT HE WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. ------------------ http://www.nba.com/theater/video/taylor_m_dunk_120299.mov
Almu: Obviously the big men in the league such as Hakeem, Shaq, Garnett, and Duncan would dominate any street ballers. I thought that was a given so I thought we were only debating the smaller perimeter players in the NBA. Others: Since we can't go on a BBS field trip to the inner city playgrounds, I'll try to give some examples we have seen on the BBS. I'm not going to be able to provide as many great examples as Dr. of Dunk just did, but here are a few: [*]I remember we had a thread about playground basketball a few months ago, and someone posted an article about the San Antonio Spurs going down to the facility in Houston. If you remember, Robinson held his own, but the other players were humiliated. [*]There was a thread a while back where someone cited that they had seen Rashard Lewis in a one-on-one basketball game with some ex-college basketball player who never quite made it in the pros (his name escapes me at the moment). I think we'll all agree that Rashard's natural shooting ability makes him an above average player in the NBA. If you'll remember back to the eyewitness, Rashard was embarassed in that game. His game is suited for the NBA, but he couldn't keep up talent-wise with the NBA-reject. RocketExpert: How many times will it take to get this across to you? 'JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE CAN'T MAKE IT IN THE NBA DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE LESS TALENTED THAN NBA PLAYERS'. That is the premise of my entire argument. ------------------ Mo money, Mo problems... [This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited September 11, 2000).]
This was posted in another thread. Kinda contradicts what you saying this thread. Just looking for a good argument to pass the time until preseason starts ------------------ In order to be a success in life, you need 2 things: 1. Don't tell everything you know.
cabbage, you are thinking of omar sneed. I too am surprised Lewis doesnt have a street game, he is very athletic. Could have been an aberration. ------------------ "The road to hell is paved with Republicans."
BobFinn*: I think that is the big misunderstanding amongst everyone in this thread. I too myself have said in countless other threads that athleticism isn't everything.....in the NBA. The argument in this thread (atleast to my understanding) is whether NBA players as individuals are more talented than playground hoopers. Obviously you can't take a team of playground hoopers and put them in the NBA and expect them to win, but in this thread we are debating talent of individual players, not as a team. ------------------ Mo money, Mo problems...
