Sherlock - I've been communicating with and following ROCKET!!!'s cryptography. No, it's not Rasheed... of that I am certain. I am almost certain the second trade is in the EC. Also, ROCKET!!! did not say "monsterous" he said the PF position would be "better than it's ever been". So who is/was the best... Otis Thorpe? Ralph Sampson? That's heavy!!
Sir Charles was still a very good player when we traded for him. 19 ppg and 14 rpg in 96-97, 15 and 12 in 97-98, 16 and 12 in 98-99...so for the PF position to be better than it was just during those few years, it would probably have to be a pretty "monsterous" PF that we would be trading for.
<b>Gator</b>: Well, Rocket!!! said the Rockets would be "sitting stronger at PF than this franchise has ever been," "4 out of 5 positions rock solid for the next 10 years with all-stars or just short thereof," "MoT is a very good PF, now it is time for a great one and we have the means to make that happen while obtaining a very good SF (what Rice was supposed to be..yea right!), "We have a history of dealing with specific teams and screwing other teams" ... We've had Charles Barkley, Elvin Hayes, Ralph Sampson, Rudy Tomjanovich, Otis Thorpe, etc. So he has to be better than any of those guys... If he's an all-star, you've got Antoine Walker, Shareef Abdur Rahim, Jermaine Oneal, Tim Duncan, Chris Webber, Karl Malone, Dirk Nowitski, and Elton Brand... Teams we have a history of trading with in the last 10 years: Toronto, New Jersey, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Dallas, Memphis, Orlando, Portland, Phoenix, Chicago, Detroit, NY ... screwing teams leaves Memphis out... Maybe its Kenyon Martin, but I'm not sure he's better than Elvin Hayes, Charles Barkley, Ralph Sampson, etc. He is maturing nicely, and could very well be a future all-star... but "better than we've ever had?" Maybe the problem is that I'm thinking that we have to give up the #1 to get Odom... I'm just assuming for Rice to be in the deal, we'd have to...
Sherlock- It's late and I'm tired but I have a question... Regardless of the exact semantic ROCKET!!! used, is it safe to assume that ROCKET!!! meant the unkown players' value as of right now or was ROCKET!!! extrapolating his personal expectation for the future? I'm thinking future... MoT + Tmo + #8 + #12 + release from Drew obligation for Curry? Since Chicago is so far under the cap, the salary differences don't matter.
What has me stumped... *The first deal is with the Clippers *The first deal includes Glen Rice and KT *We are keeping Francis, Mobley and Griffin *#1 seems to be going to the Clippers *Lamar Odom is the main piece of the deal And we are gettin a star PF in the 2nd deal.. I am stumped on how we would get that done. What would be left? Francis, Mobley, Griffin still on team..We would keep Odom...KT and #1 pick are gone... so what is left to trade for a star PF? Mo Taylor +? Other teams most likely see Mo's contract as a negative in a deal because they are weary of his past injury and added weight (I still like Mo though). So a bad contract in Mo + whatever else we can milk from the Clippers (their picks possibly) for a star PF? I just don't see it. With that being that case..it seems that the star PF would have to be in whichever of the 2 deals includes us trading the #1 pick. Could it mean we actually trade for Brand in the first deal and the 2nd deal is where we pick up a SF that isn't Odom? Extremely unlikely, since Odom is all the talk lately and I could not see the Clippers trading Brand, which would leave them with no inside scoring. So maybe it means we trade for Odom WITHOUT using any of our "core" guys OR the #1 pick, and then we trade the #1 and Mo Taylor, TMo in that 2nd deal, and that's how we get the star PF? But this is unlikely too, as the Clippers would be trading Odom for something outside of our core players/#1 pick AND taking Rice... don't see it. So, I remain stumped. I think I will just follow in the follow in the footsteps of Wrath of Khan and just go to bed.
This is how I see it going down from the hints: TRADE 1 Rockets send #1 + #15 + Rice + KT + Collier Clippers send #8 + #12 + Odom + (?Maggette/Jaric) The Clipps then pick Jay Williams & re-sign Kandi-man. Back up Kandi w/ Collier, back up Brand w/ KT. TRADE 2 Krause will know in advance that Ming will the player available and knows he needs to clear room - either Chandler or Curry. Rockets send #8 + #12 + MoT + Tmo + Drew obligation Bulls send Curry. Both the Bulls & Clipps are under the cap, so no salary matching is needed. End result: 5) Cato / Curry (Willis/MCE) 4) Curry / EG 3) Odom / EG / (Walt/MCE) 2) Cat / OT (Maggette) 1) SF / Moochie I used Willis & Walt as the Rockets appear to need some bodies and both have Bird Rights (as does Langi). We still have a second rounder and maybe the #23 from Detroit. I'm pro-Ming but this is getting real interesting.
<i>TRADE 2 Krause will know in advance that Ming will the player available and knows he needs to clear room - either Chandler or Curry. Rockets send #8 + #12 + MoT + Tmo + Drew obligation Bulls send Curry. </i> I'm missing the logic here. Supposedly Krause was enamored with the idea of a front line of Curry, Yao and Chandler. So, why does he break this up AND give away Curry for #8 , #12 and a bad contract? Taylor is mediocre, overweight, coming off a major injury, has a drug suspension pending and he makes about twice what Curry does. Why would Krause want to give up Curry in order to add Taylor and lose cap space? Didn't ROCKET!! say that there was a third player involved from the Clips? If so, it's got to be Miles (Odom/Maggette/Miles). He's the only guy other than Brand on the Clips that makes enough money to make that combo of players from Houston work salary wise in a trade (assuming that the Clips don't renounce Kandi). I'm guessing that ROCKET!!'s scenario is to then flip either Odom or Miles in a deal for a PF . My initial thought was that he meant to flip Miles over to the Wiz for Brown. But, if you throw Taylor in the deal, then the salaries are way out of wack. Also, Brown is hardly a guarenteed near all-star. Personally, I'm not too excited about trading #1 and #15 for for Odom and some Clipper backups.
I think you may be on to something. What I gathered from Rocket!! 1.) The Rockets would be getting a very strong (all-star caliber) power forward and a good small forward (but not quite an all-star). 2.) The Bulls and Clippers are somehow involved in this deal. My deductions. 1.) The Bulls do not have a strong enough power forward for ROCKET!! to make such bold statement about the Rockets being set at the power forward position for years after the trade. Curry hasn't even come close to proving he's worthy of that kind of praise. I don't think the power forward we'd be getting is from the Bulls. 2.) Since it sounds like there are two trades, I think the first one will be to the bulls to get a bunch of young talent which will then be used in some big package deal to acquire Brand and Odom. Or some other combination of a three team trade between the Bulls and Clips that somehow lands Brand and Jalen Rose. That's my crazy take without any trade details, and I may have missed something that contradicts my prediction! I just can't see how ROCKET! could say Houston would be stronger at the power forward position that ever before and then it ends up being Curry. So, how am I doing? Hot or Cold?
Actually, I think he did. He said Doc Rocket was premature in his statement that the Rockets were definitely going after Ming. That implies the #1 pick will not be used on Ming.
DCkid, I agree completely. Neither Chandler or Curry have played enough ball to be considered allstars. I think there is a very short list of candidates which fit the description ROCKET!!! layed out. Wallace (Someone on this board told me that was not happening though) Brand (Why would the Clips give Brand away to a West Coast rival like Houston?) (The same goes for Wallace) OK, so it's probably a trade with an East Coast team. Hmmm... The problem is, I can't think of any East Coast PF (excluding Walker or Martin) who fits the discription.
But he only mentioned two trades happening, and he only mentioned the Bulls and Clippers as teams that were involved. I was thinking that one trade was to the Clippers and one to the Bulls. Unless, one or both of the trades are 3-team deals, but I don't think so.
Jermaine O'neal would fit the description. Someone mentioned SAR before,but he's not a PF. It can't be: Washington (Brown not an all-star) Heat (Brian Grant, yea right) Hornets (who's their PF?) Boston (they're winning, why split the team up) New Jersey (they wont mess with this team) New York (they have nothing we want) Chicago (Curry and Chandlers not All-stars) Orlando (who's their PF?) Cleveland (they have nothing we want) Philly (no) Atlanta (Who needs Ratliff when we have EG) It maybe could be: Detroit (Why would they give up Wallace?) Indiana(Why would they give up O'neil? He's on pace to be an all-star next year) So that leave us with the West Coast. Brand, Wallace, Duncan, Garnett, are the only PFs on the West Coast who fit ROCKET!!!'s description. ROCKET already said Denver and Seattle were not part of the equation. It is extreemly hard for me to believe that Brand, Duncan, or Garnett would be sent to another west coast team like us. So, it maybe could be: Ben Wallace Sheed Duncan Brand Garnett J. O'neil Out of those, which is the most plausable?
According to ROCKET!! 1.) There would be two trades. 2.) The Clippers are involved in the first deal 3.) The Rockets would be getting two All-Star/near All-Star players. 4.) The power forward is a more valuable player than the small forward. 5.) The first trade is going to the Clippers, and includes KT, Rice, and Collier 6.) The second trade would be going to some other team and would include MoT and TMo. 7.) The second trade will be used to get a power forward, and will depend on players acquired from the first trade with the Clippers. 8.) The Rockets are trading the #1 pick. 9.) Mobley was told to say the Rockets are interested in Odom. Unknowns: 1.) Which team is the #1 pick being traded to? 2.) Which power forward would the Rockets be getting. 3.) Which small forward would the Rockets be getting. 4.) Is the #15 pick also being traded Assumption: He seemed so sure that the Rockets would be set that I find it hard to believe he was referring to guys like Eddie Curry, Eddie Robinson, Darius Miles, or players who haven't even entered the draft yet like Dunleavy or Butler. If that is who he is referring to, then I would say he was wrong and was exaggarating by saying the Rockets were set with those guys for the next ten years. So, my assumption is that young, unproven players who haven't come close to reaching their potential yet are not the players the Rockets would be keeping in this trade. The only player's on the Clippers who meet his descriptions are Elton Brand and Lamar Odom. If Mobley was in fact doing what he was told, it could mean that the Rockets really were not after Lamar Odom. It could mean that the Rockets were trying to build up Odom and acquire him from the Clippers only to trade him in the 2nd trade for some other team's star power forward.
DCkid, If I remember correctly, ROCKET!!! mentioned the June Chicago workout camps or something. I'm not entirely sure Chicago is involved as one of the teams in the trades, although I don't see Jerry looking to bend over and be passive. Who knows?
aelliott - Aren't the Clipps still about $12m under the cap even w/o renouncing Kandi? Our amigo ROCKET!!! has left clues in another thread. Here's the quote: "Add one player, ship out three, exchange some picks and you have the trade on the table. Subsequent trade...refer to Yoda quote. Exists, but not in stone. Just the wrong team. " Trade 1 is "add 1 player, ship out 3". So IMHO, no Miles. Besides, isn't having Miles what makes Odom (and his potential salary demands) expendable? As far as trade 2 goes, this is what is known: 1) Not Denver, nor Seattle, nor Portland (All excluded in the other thread ROCKET!!! has posted in). 2) A team the Rockets have a trade history with. By deduction, it's not Clipps, Denver, Seattle, nor Portland. Further "trade history" deduction excludes Utah, LAL, Minn (cap issues), SAS (common sense). So the WC would be GS - Jamison or Fortson? or the Mavs - do they even have a PF? Cuban loves Dirk anyway. Soooo, it must be the EC and I see "Yoda" as Krause. I know it doesn't make sense, but unless you're thinking GS or DAL it has to be EC. Who in the EC has cap room and a "need" for MoT and 2 Lotto picks? Hell, how many PF's in the EC are currently better than Taylor (we have to assume he is cleared healthwise or trade 2 is an excercise in futility anyway). Here's the possibilities: BOS & Walker MIA & Grant - Riley needs players, who's Yoda? NJN & Kmart - no way NYK - eliminated by ROCKET!!! in aforementioned thread ORL - No PHI & Coleman? Nah.... WAS & Kwame - they do have the cap room (I want Ty Nesby thrown in ... he has no pot history ) ATL & SAR - he's a native Atlantan...would they give up on him that soon? Forget Odom... SAR & DerMarr!! NO & PJ Brown - last year of his contract. Trade history? CLE & Mihm or Hill - Can we pass and draft 8 & 12? DET & ? IND & JO - only if we are dreaming MIL & Mason? TOR & Davis or Keon Clark ? Well, if you feel like it's EC as I do, that's the Good, the Bad, & the Ugly. IMO, it comes down to the Bulls or the Wiz. Or if it fails to fly, we pick 8th & 12th. PS - I share your sentiments about not wanting to part with #1 & #15.
Ah, you're very right. I misread that as deals were coming from the Chicago Camp, with the Chicago Camp meaning the Bulls. That's good, because the Bulls trading Rose would make no sense.
ROCKET!!! also said that Cuttino was told by management to make the comments he did on the Best Damn Sports Show Period. The only conceivable reason I can think of is to scare the Bulls into thinking Houston will be trading the #1 pick to the Clippers, a team that would draft Jay Williams with the #1 pick. The Bulls would then give some players of value to the Rockets and take on some bad contracts in order to assure Houston doesn't trade the pick. But then how else can the Rockets get an "all-star" caliber player without trading the #1? He also said: "Make no mistake, Cat did what he was told. Three people control this organization and thats it. If someone decides they do not like that; they have been sent packing. End of story." This gets me thinking that perhaps the rumors of Francis giving ultimatums are true and he will be dealt. This would explain how Houston would be able to get an all-star power forward.
Maybe you're right. I just can't see how Kwame Brown and Eddie Curry can be considered All-Star Caliber players.
