DD - Apart from what Jeff said, the other way you beat a zone is to get downcourt before it sets up. Advantage: Suns. It's harder to box out on rebounds in a zone...the Rockets got beat badly in that category as it was. You're looking for a "one size fits all' way of leveling the overall talent difference between the Rockets and the Suns. There isn't one. Well...there is but you don't believe me when I say that building this team with a bunch of standstill spot up shooters is totally wrong. But I still have hope you'll see the light!
heh I said the same thing in chat last night VG just cant win with this board whine whine whine that he wont play the super rookies then when he does...and keep in mind, he wasnt forced to use Novak, he could have played PAdgett instead, but he wanted speed out there....he gets toasted for the way he used them. at least most of this board didnt expect a win last night...it certainly cuts down a little on the whining.
I love how JVG apologists twist the words of JVG critics on playing Novak. It is clear the criticisms were NOT aimed at JVG for giving Novak more playing time, but for playing the rookie the wrong way. On another note, I find it really amusing it is often the position of JVG apologists that JVG doesn't give a damn about what this board thinks of his coaching, but OTOH the apologists feel extremely agitated about the JVG bashing as if the criticisms on this board somehow would bring bad karma to their beloved head coach. You guys never cease to amaze me.
soo this is all ya got wmes?? name calling? ok I can play this whiny farleft liberal conspiracy theorist really describes you dont it? oh it doesnt?? well JVG apologist doesnt describe me either, so now you know how it feels
NO NO NO !!! I am saying mix it up a bit....the zone is not the full answer but part of the solution. And, I have always agreed that we need another penetrator on the floor besides Tmac.... It was no coincidence that the Suns started to pull away again when Barbossa and Nash were playing together. That is why I think the Rockets need a dose of V-Span in the 4th..... DD
Far left liberal? LOL ... R2K, for one, I am more conservative than "moderates" on drug policy. So you are not a JVG apologist, I apologize by lumping you into the group. But hey, don't you think it's really a fairly mild term?
DD, The best PG guard in the NBA, especially at penetrating, surrounded by a revolving door of 3pt shooters and slashers is the VERY DEFINITION of a zone busting team. Let me put it this way, tell us what you think a zone busting team is? As for backpeddling and saying you only meant to say "mix it up a bit" as if this is football and you need to blitz some, man zone and zone some. This isn't football. Everything you told Jeff above about how to turn Nash from a playmaker into a scorer can be done with Man defense, and better. It's not like there is only one type of man defense, btw.
OK...mixing up can be a good thing. Emphasis on "can". IMHO, the zone or VSpan have exactly the same problem whether they get incorporated or not. For something to work...you have to give it enough time to work. Anyone who has taken a basic course in chemistry knows that not all chemical reactions are immediate. On the rare moments when VG displays some creative thought, he backs off as soon as anything falls remotely outside of his mantra of no TO's and getting to your spot on both O and D...but especially D. The importance (at least to me) of making this distinction is thus. The Rockets had far fewer TO's....12 to 17....more steals than a much quicker team...7 to 5....took more charges and had 12 more FGA's. But the Suns basically controlled the game. The Rockets (excluding McGrady) are more concerned with being in their spots than exhibiting any degree of creativity or accenting what they do best. The younger, less established players are too fearful of getting the quick hook. This doesn't mean Novak didn't suck badly the first 5 minutes of Q1...he was terrible on his defensive rotations. But if he's going to bring you 40% 3PT shooting, you have to allow him time to establish what he does best to offset his weaknesses. Otherwise, all you ever see are the weaknesses. All of what VG emphasizes and the fact we just won't force tempo on a consistent basis means that every possession has more meaning than it should. Less margin for error. The margin for error IMO would have been broadened with a different personnel skill set mix. Tying back to your point...spotup shooters are generally slower. Slower players are easier to get inside of on a zone. The underpinning of every valid Rockets' criticism is IMHO related to the skill set they've assembled. But as you already know, I'm the only one who believes this.
If any team is designed to beat the zone its the Suns. As much as I dislike the slow down game that is probably the best way to beat the Suns. I missed the first part of the game so didn't realize Novak had started. Glad he got playing time but not sure how JVG intended to use him. I like Novak but you can't expect him to come in and play like Howard. This was certainly a rough experience for the rookie but hopefully he learns something from this and JVG isn't so dissapointed in him that he just relegates him back to the bench.
jvg didn't want to give novak spot minutes in previous games and he just decides to start him against the suns? what was jvg thinking?
my post was more about pointing out the folly of dismissing another's opinion by pidgeon-holing them. Just becasue you dont agree with the main jist of their viewpoint, doesnt mean they dont have valid points worthy of discussion. by lumping them together and dismissing them out of hand...you take away any possibiity of meaningful discussion imo. My point may have been better made by someone with better verbal(so to speak) skills...but it is what it is.
DaDakota -- you see why I was laughing at you when you started this "zone" talk. This ain't college basketball mate. And this quote was priceless ... Looks like our dear DD has forgotten why Steve Nash is a 2-time MVP. Are you kidding me? Steve Nash will drop 30 points on you in a hurry if he wants to. And let's not even talk about the lightning quick Barbosa who is just as capable of lighting you up both inside and outside -- who was blowing right past Luther Head all day as if Luther didn't even exist. And as if Amare and Shawn Marion weren't eating us alive on the boards enough, you want to sacrifice whatever little rebounding we had by running a zone? Might as well forfeit the game. There's a good reason why you aren't a basketball coach, DD. A very good reason.
how should novak be used? people on this board call for novak, and what is the way to use him? it isn't vg apologists, but the way people actually set themselves to be a coach. ok, so why don't people take the responsibility as a coach and tell everyone on the board how things should be done, instead of coming up with play novak as the only calling card. criticize vg, but please do come up with something interesting and novel and explain why things should be some other way.
The pick n' roll involving Tmac and Novak worked like perfection. Now if they could only incorporate Yao into that play it would be pick your poison. Yao easy layup/dunk, Novak wide open 3, or Tmac to the rack!
Zone verse the Suns is nearly impossible. The only way we'd have a change in hell would be if they shot bad against it.
Here is an example memo to JVG and his apologists: I thought the facts in this short paragraph could be understood easily, but , well , JVG is JVG
Running a zone against a team like the Suns would be horrible. They would be able to get open jumpers all day. When I played basketball in high school I was a three point shooter. I led my league in 3 point shooting my senior year. Whenever we'd play a team that would play zone my eyes would light up. I had my best games against the zone. In high school 3-2 zones work better then 2-3s in stopping 3 point shooters, but that wouldn't be the case against the Suns. It works in high school because players aren't strong enough with the ball and can get trapped easily. Against a quick team like the suns, the 3-2 wouldn't work. Every type of zone has a weak point. 2-3 is behind the arc, foul line extended. 3-2 is the corners. The only way to stop guys from getting open in the corner is t ohave the big man go out on them. Yao would be way too slow for this. If the guard on that side had to slide to the corner, it would kill the rest of the zone. All the Suns would have to do would be to overload the side that Yao's on. I suck at photo shop but here it is. #1 Suns overload the side that Yao's on. They probably would go small but it wouldn't be totally necessary. #2 Not much to say here. Nash swings it to the left (strong, overloaded side) #3-A The guard on the perimeter swings it to the corner. Most teams would send the big man on that side out, because he has a straight route to the guy in the corner. If the guard/sf goes into the corner then he has to pivot to the side and is sort of guarding 2 players but I'll get into that in a second. So If Yao goes out then the weak side big man has to fill that block and replace Yao. The weak side guard slides down to the weakside block. The strong side guard slides back a step or two to blcok a passing lane into the middle of the paint and the point guard moves over and back a step or two. The Suns can do multiple things to get an easy bucket. Yao running out at a 3 point shooter doesn't work. The player can bust the zone by driving by Yao. If Yao's too slow to get out the guy has a 3. If not then Amare can run down to the block. The Rockets opposite side big man has to run over to guard Amare. If the rotation is slow Amare has a dunk. If the rotation is fast then the Suns can send it into the opposite corner where a wide open 3 awaits or swing it anywhere on the perimeter causing the Rockets zone to have to run around like crazy. If you don't get that the major point is that having Yao run out at players in the corner, while in a zone or any type of defense is not good. #3-B So since the Rockets don't want Yao running out then the strong-side guard will have to run in the corner. Good ball movement on this d could lead to an easy 3 in the opposite corner. Since the Rockets guard has to go in the corner then the point guard/middle guard will have to replace him. Then the oppsoite side guard will replace the middle guard. If the rotation isn't fast enough, the perimeter Suns guard would get a 3 in a give in go. If the rotation by the weak side Rockets guard isn't good enough then Nash would get a 3. If the rotation was great then the Suns would swing it around and the open part of the zone would be the opposite corner, and the Rockets would be in the same situation as they started. The Suns would either get an open 3, a drive, or they could just swing it around and wait for someone else to get open. The Suns could beat the Rockets 3-2 so easily. All I really talked about was 3s, but all of this movement from Yao and everyone on the floor would lead to holes down low as well. We'd see endless open 3s, dunks, and assists from Stevie Nash. I don't think I even have to do a diagram of 2-3. All Nash would have to do is attack one side of the zone. The guard would try and cut him off, then the guard on that side would be open. Zone just would not work. match up zone doesn't work against the Suns. I really think the only way to stop them would be to play them straight up and not leave anyone open. The problem with that would be their quickness, but if the Rockets could just stay in front of them and not leave their man, they'd have a shot on d. Anyways I have way too much time on my hands....
I liked when he came into the 4th Q and went about his way looking for an open spot to stand in, then turns towards TMac who's dribbling out high with that look on his face "so, are you going to just stand there or come over and do a pnr with me like we practiced!" hehe. TMac waves him over and Steve "Oh, that's right I'm supposed to be over there" Novak gives him a pick. By this time the Suns are dismissing Novak and trap TMac who gives the most obvious pass to Novak for a quick ... quick ... release 3 from a foot back. Swish! My friends and I couldn't help but laugh. As Langhi-lost as he looks running around, once he gets that ball in his hands for a shot, none of that matters as the world slows down for him when his head turns up to find the rim and he rises...
It worked when the game was over but i don't know how well it would work in a close game. There are lots of things you can do. The Suns could have just put Bell on TMac and Marion on Novak or vise versa and then switch on every pick. Or the guy guarding tmac could just go under the pick and dare TMac to shoot 3s which we don't want. I'd much rather see Yao and TMac run the p and r.
