It is true that bad socializing is the major cause of aggressive dogs. However, even with good socializing, there can always be exceptions (genetic oddities, disease, or some unknown reason) where an animal (persons included) freak out for no reason. It is part of being an interactive biological organism. German Shepards, Rotts, Chows, Dobermans, and Pits are all very high on the mauling list. The problem with Pits is they were bread to be especially aggressive and to bite and hold with tenacity (which easily kills children or other animals when one of them freaks out for whatever reason--bad socializing or another). My opinion is they should be severely restricted because they are so deadly relative to other dogs (even in comparison to Rotts and Germans, when you look at mauling per dog rates). You just have a much slimmer margin or error having a Pit. ------------------ Elie buried the clutch 3 that would launch the Rockets to their second title run, driving a stake through the onwatching Suns fans hearts that will forever be etched in the dry Arizona landscape.
You are now the third person I know who has a lab/chow mix and says the same thing about their dog. And you described my dog perfectly - short haired, had a curly tail and a purple tongue. What color of lab is your dog? Mine is a black lab/chow mix, so she is totally black, which looks strange when she has her tongue hanging out! ------------------ Save our children from the TAAS test: TAAS test report card TAAS test fact sheet
Make me the 4th. I had a black lab/chow mix. Weird thing is, his tongue was part purple and part black !!! ------------------ "It's not a matter of if we will win the NL central, it's by how many games." Barry Larkin
Actually had is the operative word here. He died about 10 years back now Mine was also jet black. Freaky, huh?. Absolutely awesome dog. I remember when I was growing up, my parents used to let him out the front to run around at night and he was free to roam the neighbourhood. I would never go to sleep until I heard him get home - kind of like a worried parent. ------------------ Maybe all the rulers are wrong. Current Rocket's Salary & Contract Info
i hate when owners let dogs just run loose in the neighborhood. that's probably what the pit bulls' owner did and look what happened. 3/4ths of the puppies at the SPCA are chow mixes with those freaky black spotted tounges. I guess they are the most promiscuous of all the breeds.
I prefer Rhodesian Ridgebacks myself. I have two sisters at 3 years old. It's amazing how they used these dogs to hunt lions in Africa but they are the most protective and friendly dogs around children. I couldn't imagine a Ridgeback harming a child...maybe licking it to death. Or, maybe it's just that I raised my dogs very well as I consider myself a great dog owner. A squirrel, on the other hand, is fair game as mine are avid squirrel hunters. On another note, did anyone see that CNN article about the Pomeranian killing the 6 week old child recently. The lady went to the kitchen and returned to find the little Pomeranian had the 6 week old's head in it's mouth. I guess no child is safe around any breed of dog. Although, it wouldn't take much to kill a 6 week old. Surf ------------------
I heard that taco bell dogs are really mean biters, too. ------------------ My dream job is to be a Houston Rockets towel-boy.
Jeff, there is a difference between puppy mills and breeders. Responsible breeders go to great pains to keep the genetic stock of their dogs as clean as possible and do not produce homeless puppies. I understand and agree with your displeasure with puppy mills. If you want to extend that displeasure towards breeders, that's fine, but I want to be clear that there is a difference. ------------------ Rockets Draft Obligations Summary http://www.gaffordstudios.cjb.net/
I find it a bit hypocritical that you make excuses for Chows and their aggression problems - simply because you own a mix, but yet you still condemn the American Pit Bull Terrier. I have worked with dogs as a groomer,trainer,kennel worker,vet's asst.,etc. for my entire working career and I have owned, bred and rescued Pit Bulls for 14 years. Owned them for 14 years, rescued them for 10 years, bred only a couple litters and only because I have had exceptional dogs, I felt were worth breeding those couple times and I had homes for the pups before they were born. Great dogs truly worthy of breeding are not that common and many dogs bred should never have been. I feel that there are already too many Pit Bulls being bred by the wrong people with the wrong dogs - either who don't care what they breed or who they sell too! Or they have good intentions, but really do not understand genetics or the science of breeding or they just simply do not understand the breed and what they should be breeding for or NOT breeding. BTW-I have delt with many,many Chows in my life - more then 100 and I can honestly say it is the most unpredictable and most difficult breed to deal with. As they show very little expression in what they are feeling and almost always fail to give a warning before they bite and they are offended very easily offended and are quick to bite. Many groomers even refuse to groom the breed because of those reasons. We had many incidences in my grooming shop I owned for 6 years! I could go on about the breed, but I am not here to make another breed look bad and in defense of Chows, I have also seen some that were wonderful, but that was few compared to how many were aggressive and nasty, but before you jump on to defend Chows - remember I am speaking from MY personal experiences and not hearsay or media hype! If you want to get in a battle over Chows be aware I am fully armed with experiences that will put the breed in a equally bad light as the APBT has been shown in. So I feel they are very worthy to be listed with Pits and Rotties and like breeds! Now about the APBT and it's negative exposure, I will elaborate on this a bit. The reputation it has is not truly deserved and there are other breeds who surpass the Pit Bull in bite fatalities, but out of respect for those breed owners I will not tag their breeds- as I know how it feels to have your breed unfairly targeted. 1) Pit Bulls making headlines is one of the number one reasons they are always and I mean always broadcast. When there is any attack, nothing sounds as juicy to the media then "Pit Bull Attack!". Chow attack or Lab attack, just don't cut it as good as the name "Pit Bull" does, that now strikes terror into the hearts of people! 2) Many so called reported "Pit Bull attacks" are not even Pit Bulls at all. A Pit Bull club I used to be with some years back used to investigate so called, media hyped Pit Bull attacks! And many times they were not even Pit Bulls and one time the dogs were husky mixes!!... and reported as Pit Bulls that killed an old woman!! - which turned out the autopsy showed she was stabbed by an object and not bit by dogs at all. You might actually remember that story, about the old lady who was supposedly killed by her sons 2 Pit Bulls? Well that's the one, and her son skipped town and was missing and she was found to be murdered and yet the media never got back on and said "Oops, they were not Pit Bulls at all" seems they never do get back on and fix their mistakes. Many times people do not even know what a true Pit Bull even looks like - my family used to breed pugs and I have had MANY, MANY times been asked by people "were my Pugs Pit Bulls??" I have seen Bull Mastiffs accused of being Pit Bulls and I did Pit Bull rescue for 10 years and I have seen Rottie mixes that looked Pit Bull. So many times the person identifying the dog as a Pit Bull, is misinformed. Or the media cannot determine the breed so they use Pit Bull, as Pit Bull has come to mean more then just a breed of dog. It's the medias official word for "Bad dog!". 3) I must get into the problem also of bad owners or bad breeders. Some bad owners are truly bad owners, who do not even deserve to own Goldfish let alone a large responsibility like a dog. Some people abuse and neglect their dogs and ANY breed can become unstable in that environment. Some bad owners WANT a mean dog and encourage aggressive behavior in their dogs and think that Pit Bulls are some extension of appendages they lack! And again some bad owners are actually well meaning good people, who have no business with a breed like the Pit Bull. Any breed like the Pit Bull, Rottie,Dobie, GSD,Mastiffs...etc.,etc. Need experienced dog owners with large breeds with aggressive tendencies be it dog aggression like in the Pit Bull or people aggression like in German Shepherd Dogs. That requires someone who understand that breed and has an assertive personality. Many well meaning people get Pit Bulls and are under the impression that with lots of love and training they can train their Pit Bulls to not be dog or animal aggressive and do really dense things like take their Pit Bulls to play in dog parks. It is no secret Pit Bulls are dog aggressive and should be raised and handled under that premis. Would you allow a Rat Terrier to romp and play with your pet rats? You know that you are tempting fate that way and it would be best to separate the rats and Rat Terrier and allow them different play times. Same goes with Pit Bulls and strange dogs or even dogs that they live with! Pit Bulls do not do well with other dogs that are aggressive or very dominant, even when they are raised with them since puppy hood, eventually there could be a conflict and that is asking for trouble. A media story comes to mind about the Boxer and Pit Bulls that got into it. The 3 dogs did not live together normally, yet the owner thought they were smart allowing the 2 pits and 1 dominant male Boxer to get together?? The dogs fought and the Boxer attacked one of the owners trying to stop the fight. Things like that with well meaning people are flirting with disaster for other dogs or animals. Now breeders who breed Pit Bulls and know very little about the breed - to me- do some of the greatest damage to the breed! Pit Bulls are actually supposed to be totally people friendly NOT GUARD dogs! And should be actually one of the best most stable breeds with children, but we see that is not always so now. Young punks breeding for money or ignorant people breeding cause they have a male Pit Bull and "hey you have a female...well alright lets breed!" these people are hurting the breed as many are unaware of the purpose they are breeding for and what they should be breeding for in this paticular breed or what they SHOULD NOT allow to breed in this paticular breed! People aggressive dogs are a major NO NO in this breed and are euthanized and not allowed to breed by experienced, reputable breeders! There are many other things as well, but that's a start and as you can see many ignorant punks even breed FOR people aggression! This breed has a bad rap due to PEOPLE! It's not a breed thing it's a PEOPLE thing! The Pit Bull is a much older breed then many other breeds, they have been around (at the known earliest) since the 16th century! And if they were that horrible all along (which they were not) they would have never made it this far! I suggest just trying to see for yourself, so you can make an educated decision about this breed! Go to Pit Bull dog shows, or different working type trials where some Pit Bulls will be...meet the breeders and owners and meet the TRUE Pit Bull! My male Pit Bull I have now is 8 1/2 years old and a Certified Therapy dog. He goes to hospitals, etc. and people pet him and kiss him and that's his job! And believe it or not, there are MANY Pit Bulls who do this kind of stuff. And more then not, Pit Bulls are sweet, loving ,clownish,overly affectionate,great with people and kids,bright,willing to please no matter what! dogs. It's not that they are some horrible monster, they are just a singled out victim of society. I will leave you with one name that is a very accurate portrait of our breeds personality and temperament... go rent the old Our Gang movies and watch Pete the pup otherwise known as "Petey". He..well..all of the Petey's were REAL pure bred APBT's and show the good humor and nature of the breed. Please before you blame this breed, look at the people who usually are behind these stories - you will see many times it was either a lack of responsibility or a poorly bred dog from a back yard breeder that the person payed all but 50 bucks for. So goes the old sayings... "you get out what you put in" and or "you get what you pay for". ------------------
As a Rottwieler owner, I find it unfortunate that they get thrown in that group of dogs that have a bad rep. My Rottwieler is almost 7 months old. He currently weighs about 65 pounds. I knew nothing of Rotts when I got him. I was looking for a Lab or a Retriever when I went to the SPCA. But this puppy charmed me and my wife. He was the most social dog of all of the ones we tried to get to know. Rotty's are kind and protective by nature. They are not mean. They are loud, big and strong but they are not mean unless they have some sort of behaviour disorder. Or unless they are trained that way. We sent our Rotty to Man's Best Friend when he was 3 months old and it was and will continue to be an excellent investment. Rotts are very smart. Sometime too smart because they like to keep testing their limits. He remembers and understands every thing he has been taught. Being a puppy, he doesn't always listen. These dogs are puppies for about 2 years. Like a human child, he requires a lot of attention and reinforcement. I guess my point is that even with training (the good kind), dogs need to be drilled and tested constantly until they gain full respect for their owner(s). Just like any child, they will do things that they know are wrong (like digging and eating plants, not eating people). Our dog is primarily an inside dog so we tend to let him roam free in the house. He will not always obey when he is not on the leash. But when we put the leash on him he knows that we are in controll and he obeys. It is my duty and responsibility as a large breed dog owner to keep working with him until he is always obedient. I agree wholeheartily with whoever said above that owners should not just buy a dog and stick him in the back yard. Our dog is well loved and he knows it. Even though he loves to put anything in his mouth, including my hand, fingers, arm, leg, etc, he never actually applies pressure. Even with his play biting he is gentle. It was explained to me that since dogs don't have fingers they generally use their mouths to grab things. While this is not actually a good thing, it does tell me that dogs, or at least my dog, are usually trained to be mean, or they are completely unloved and unrespected. My wife had a friend who's husband "trained" pit bulls to be fighters. It was one of the most sad things I have ever seen. These dogs basically get tortured to the point that any little thing will drive them into a rage. All they know is to destroy. ------------------ RocketFuel is dead!
I agree outlaw, but remember this was 15 years ago in Australia - back in the days when it was acceptable to let your dog roam free AND you could leave your front door unlocked when you went on vacation. Sabrina No argument with you - I agree whole heartedly with "you get out what you put in". I'm sure a large proportion of dog related incidents could be prevented by owners taking proper responsibility. My only experience with Chows was a very pleasant one and I would never have considered them a threat - thats why its good to hear from people like you! Great first post. Do you just happen to be a rockets fan AND a dog enthusiast who was lurking here waiting for the right topic to get you started ------------------ Maybe all the rulers are wrong. Current Rocket's Salary & Contract Info
As someone who has raised and trained pit bulls (as well as other hunting dogs) for years I can tell some problems with pit bulls and why they have such a bad reputation. First is that they became popular for dog fighting, wild hog hunting and especially for guard dogs. Once a breed becomes popular the overbreeding, and thus the inbreeding, begins because people are trying to make money. Second, many people buy full grown dogs for guard dogs and don't know how to handle them or are afraid of them. A pit bull should always be raised from a puppy if it is to be a family or house dog. If a dog is trained as guard dog it should also be trained not to be agressive towards children. (And yes it is possible and in fact easy.) Third, as someone already said as their reputation has grown people have grown afraid of them which feeds the instinct of an agressive dog. Fourth, some people just allow them to run free. Pit bulls are very territorial and so the larger area they are allowed to roam the larger their "territory." They should be trained to stay inside definite boundaries. The pit bull can be a wonderful dog if it is brought up with a family treated well and trained properly. I have a female pit bull that my children run with, play with and generally abuse with kindness. She obeys them when they tell her to do something because she was trained to obey them. The bottom line with pit bulls, as with any breed is proper training. If you train them to be agressive they will be. If you don't train them at all their natural instincts will take over and they will be territorially aggressive. Train them properly and they are are wonderful family or working dogs. I know some of you will never be convinced and you are precisely the people who shouldn't have a pit bull. Unfortunately there are alot of people who get they because they think they are "cool" and "look bad." Those people shouldn't have them either and are the cause of most of the problems. BTW Surfguy, I had a couple of Ridgebacks my self once. They were some great huntings dogs. ------------------ [This message has been edited by JT (edited October 09, 2000).]
I thought Pits were OVER INBREED which is why so many are 'crazy' and unstable this was what the '**** fighting' folx wanted in a dog. Rocket River ------------------
I never once condemned the Pit Bull, I simply said "Please do not include Chows in the same discussion as Pit Bulls." In another post I said "Any dog will turn on their owners if they are not cared for properly." Explain to me how these two statements are a "condemnation" of the Pit Bulls. Obviously you have much more knowledge of dogs than I do, which you have no problem showing to everyone. ------------------ Save our children from the TAAS test: TAAS test report card TAAS test fact sheet
Per dog (not in "total" because there are more Rotts and Germans), Pit Bulls do lead in fatalities. In part this could be do to mis-identification of the breed, but this seems an unlikely explanation for all the trends because this has been the case in the USA as well as other countries. I have met very sweet Pits (mostly mixes though), Chows, Germans, and Rotts. I do agree bad socialization is 97-99% of the problem with any of these dog breeds. Still, of these it is possible Chows may bite the most and are are the most unpredictable, but their bite is a whole lot less deadly-- especially in relation to Pits. I think it is great the posters appear to be caring and committed owners and advocates. But obviously dogs bread to be dog or people aggressive (or guard dogs like Rotts or Dobermans) deserve "special attention" because the effects of bad care when it happens are compounded by the aggressiveness + many of these dogs have great capability of severe physical damage to other persons/animals. Just like with Tigers, Leopards, etc. (not saying Pits are wild, just taping into their higher potential for causing death when for whatever reason they are aggressive), when an animal has less margin of error (potential for servere injuries or death) I think regulations should be considered. Just my opinion, but I think the line can be draw between Pits and even Germans/Rotts/ Dobermans where I am less concerned about the latter. I don't know where I would put Mastiffs because I don't know if there is enough of them to estimate their potential threats. Potential reasonable regulations for Pits could be not allowing them in certain urban areas, perhaps it should be illegal unless onwers have taken training with the breeds, perhaps additional restictions and penalities for owners who miscare for their animals or do not provide a secure habitat). This is not a knock of any breed or any animal for that matter, I think it is great to have passions to save species or certain breed, just a recognition that public safety concerns have to come in the picture. [This message has been edited by Desert Scar (edited October 11, 2000).]
