picture of Chairman Mao overlooking Yao as he carries the olympic torch

This is an interesting thread. I would liken the reverence to Mao to that of older Russians to Joseph Stalin. There is no doubt that both of these men were murderers the likes of which the world has seldom seen. However, many people acknowledge that the seismic cultural shifts they introduced literally brought their countries out of the agrarian dark ages. Stalin's rapid industrialization made it possible for the USSR to lift itself out of a crushed economy and an incredibly damaging war. Unfortunately, he killed tens of millions of his own people in the process. Even after the de-Stalinization of the USSR, it was reported - and still is - that many older Russians who survived the process are grateful that there nation emerged into the modern world.

China and the former USSR both seem to acknowledge that everything was not rosy during Mao and Stalin's tenure, but more of a blood color, yet they also respect that each dramatically altered the course of their countries.

All of what I said can probably be disputed, but nonetheless, it's an incredibly interesting topic.

 

My reply was trying to answer your "mao love" question, as well as the Bush comparison.

I agree China could have done better economically had Mao not made a lot of mistakes in that area. But the comparison between Taiwan and Mainland China is very misleading.

First of all, when KMT retreated to Taiwan, they not only took basically all the national treasurer with them, they also took the very limited educational resource with them. For example, they took most respected professors from Tsinghua University and built the Taiwan Tsinghua University. TU is the no.1 ranked university in mainland and I believe TTU is the no.2 in Taiwan.

secondly, the help Taiwan received from USA and Japan had a lot to do with Taiwan being at the forefront against China. Without that, I doubt Taiwan would get that much of help from either country. I doubt China would have received that kind of help even if KMT still ruled China. Even if they got the help, it would not nearly have as much an impact because China is so much bigger than Taiwan.

I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

 

capitalism is good for more than some, less than everyone.

 

not just late, but early too. He was infamous for purging within his own ranks. He was paranoid. He killed all the intellectuals even before the cultural revolution. He'd encourage openness, encourage people to criticize, and then eventually had all his critiques silenced. He killed land owners in every village just to make an example of them.

Look, my understanding is from what I learned in a college course. I'm no expert on Mao to be sure - and while he did some good things (again I will assert that China would be more powerful and stronger had they been under nationalist rule but that's my non-expert opinion) - everything I have learned has been pretty bad. Of course, it's a product of a western education - but there wasn't much to say it wasn't his fault. His biographies and stories from even Chinese intellectuals today are pretty dam*ing. And it's not just western history books that paint a grim picture.

But it's history. It's the past. I understand that the man is a symbol of a nation, and I think that's why the world doesn't say too much about Mao's picture above Yao Ming there. But I think if you want to really know the truth, then do some digging, not from a Chinese source, and not from a western source because you understandably believe it's bias - but perhaps from some place you can trust and know is truly neutral. It's more important to you as it's your heritage - not mine. And the suffering from his hands were other people - it wasn't the Japanesse, although one could say Tibetans and Koreans suffered a great deal from his policies - but by far it was ethnic Chinese.

I honestly dont see China as a nation that's terrible to the rest of the world - it's not. it hasn't launched any wars in at least decades, and certainly has done a lot less to screw up the world relative to us or many other nations like Britain or the French. But still, the majority of what China does that is wrong as a nation is to it's own people. America is a beneficiary of China's success - at least the American consumer, and vice versa. That's what trade is all about.

But I do find a sad irony is seeing the olympic torch being carried under a gigantic picture of Mao. It says to me more about what the Olympics is than anything about China. The Olympics is just a sporting event. All that meaning about human goodness and blah blah blah - it's not there. It was gone a long time ago. But this is just the exclamation point to me.

 

very superficial

 

Not to enter this useless debate, but my understanding is that that's a bluffing, Chinese style.

 

I have spoken on the Chinese side a lot of times. But defending Mao is not something that I would venture into. He might not be a mass murderer if you want to make that argument base on 'intention'. But there is no doubt his dumb decisions had caused millions of death in the 1950's and 1960's.

 

Since we're on Mao, has anyone read Life and Death in Shanghai? It's an incredibly moving book, though a bit long winded. Has to do with a woman's true story of her arrest during the Cultural Revolution in China.

 

Taiwan's government looted 90%+ China's national reserve before they fled the mainland. They also has western assistance due to the Cold War and only due to the Cold War. Left by their own design, "better standard of living" would be a possibility, not a sure thing.

And get your facts straight, China wasn't isolationistic. It was isolated. It had very good relations with many countries that recognized the CCP even when Mao first took over the country.

Plus, China was capitalist before Mao, it is still capitalist after Mao. The loop Mao took the country in the middle doesn't make capitalism a new phenomon in China.

Really? I'm still waiting for the world's largest democracy to step close to the Chicom achievements.

 

By the way, I'm noticing a trend. I think I noted this before too, but it seems that the number of people Mao supposedly slaughtered keeps getting higher and higher.

At first it was 10 million. Then couple years later it turned into 20 million. In the late 70's I think the west started tossing the 40 million figure around. Early 80's we saw 60 million. Now we've hit the 90, 100, 125 million marks.

I find that very impressive. You see, somehow Mao offed 31.25% of China's 1949 population and those same western sources claim that the Chinese people didn't notice.

Of course, Mulder quoted the 1.2 million murdered Tibetans figure, almost equaling Tibet's population in 1951, the source of course, being freetibet.org, as good a source as any.

And who can forget Jung Chang, forget that she has since been discredited, as good a source as any also.

My question is really simple actually. Has any of those acclaimed Mao critics a source for their figures, i.e. proof? The last round when I went through their books, I sure as hell can't find any.

 

It's sad that Mao killed a billion people -- prayers.

 

agree! I find it especially disturbing to see the increasing admirer of Mao among Chinese youth. These young people do not have any experience or clear idea about the tragedy of the cultural revolution. On the other hand they suddenly find in reality a China surrounded by hostility of the western countries no matter it is directed to communism or the nation. It surely reminds people of the history when China was bullied and invaded by foreign forces in almost a century and Chinese was treated as inferior nationality. Thus the sense of crisis rises and so does the call for a strong political leader of defiance to keep the nation intact. Personally I very much dislike Mao and don't think the trend will do good. But the trend will go on and scale up if western countries keep their current approach which shows hate and hostility.

 

You know what 10 mil deaths is great as long as it wasn't 20 million deaths.

 

who came up with the bubble tea? was it taiwan or china ?
i notice the taiwanese places were the first to have them here, just wondering if they created it.

 

Do I think Mao was a Hitler? No. A Stalin? Maybe.

The person I think he'd most compare to though is probably Saddam Hussein.

 

I am not sure which one you refer to. And be honest with you I am not good at tea culture. I have been drinking green tea for almost all my life. Besides, I don't go to the markets in US to buy tea. (I have friends bring the tea from China or I bring back some when I visit China).

If I have to take a guess, I would say it originated in southeastern China(Fujian province) where majority Taiwanese ancients immigrated from hundreds years ago. The reason those places having them first probably more because the Taiwanese started to immigrate to usa decades earlier than the Chinese.

 

this is the stuff I'm talking about

 

Oh, that "tea"!

Either Taiwan or HongKong, I am not sure.

I never consider that as tea, though it does have the name "big ball milk tea" or whatever.

 

(late to the thread .. was out of town)

What was the story with Hong Kong parading in as a separate country? Was that part of the 1999 treaty?

 

It's awful. But you know what, 10 million starvation due to stupid economic policy sure as hell is better than 20/30/... million extermination.

One is purposeful, the other is not. Intent is everything isn't it?

The CCP and Chinese Olympic Committee allowed it. Since there is a quota to the number of participants from the same country in any event, if they allow Hong Kong, it doubles the quota and a win is still a Chinese win.