FWIW: http://www.csnphilly.com/baseball-philadelphia-phillies/phils-gm-amaro-no-mistake-made-astros-deal
Phillies GM has denied this report. I don't remember who said it, but to paraphrase, "Phillies GM states they are not incompetent, just stupid".
That sounds pretty verbatim of my post. I also liked Astros County's take on their contradiction: Nay, the Phillies totally meant to get fleeced in the Pence deal Ortiz is supposedly going to write a more detailed article that will give us more insight. Either way, the Phillies royally screwed up. They gave up more for Hunter Pence than we gave up for Randy Johnson in 1998.
Yes, more insight and truthiness from JdJO, that'll be the day.... I don't see why this necessarily means the Phillies GM is stupid. We don't know who else the Astros asked to be on the PTBNL list and were rejected. Santana may have been their 3rd or 4th "best" choice, so the Phillies compromised.
I know every franchise makes stupid mistakes. I am still a little shocked that the Michael Bourn deal got so little for the Astros in comparison to the Pence deal. Oberholtzer seems the only thing of value from that deal.
Well, yeah, but we knew that even before the PTBNL was announced. Probably the best trade of Wade's career. And remember, there were big questions about Santana's game at the time, he could have just as easily flamed out.
Their World Series window was closing and Pence was the best bat available. It turned out badly because they didn't win the WS, but Pence was incredible for them that season and they finished with the best record in baseball. They had a team built to win a title, and had they won, giving up several prospects would have been a great trade. It was a calculated gamble that didn't work out, but I don't think it was a terrible trade.
I believe trades like that really only turn out "bad" when a team ends up barren of prospects, and is currently struggling (as the Phillies are now)... while the prospects they traded are all starting to make their debuts. Even when the Astros traded for Randy Johnson in 1998, and even when they failed to make the WS, I never considered it a "failure" on any level mainly because their farm system wasn't decimated till around the mid 2000's, and the team continued to have success. I believe all quality teams should have the ability to trade prospects for established players like the Phillies did... but should never put themselves in a position where they have absolutely "nothing" left worth promoting (as they sorta are right now). Hell, the Astros are going to have to start becoming "sellers" eventually, even if they aren't on the cusp of contending just yet, simply because there isn't enough space in their farm system to showcase all the talent.
Completely agree. Part of the role of prospects is to build a roster, but another role is to let you move them to fill holes in a contender. People can argue about overpaying or whatnot, but all of these guys were single-A prospects at the time, so they were far away from contributing for a team built to win now and they could easily have all flamed out.
Santana was still highly regarded (He was their 9th best prospect). Almost every prospect has flaws and can flame out. Nobody was going to come close to what the Phillies gave up. That was the problem with what they did. A good GM has to make decisions for now and the future. Carlos Beltran, who was actually the best bat available, went for Zach Wheeler.
It's a little more complicated, though, in that Pence was under club control for another year. So Philly traded for 1.5 years of a much cheaper (and healthier) Pence instead of a 0.5 year rental in Beltran. Philly had the option to re-trade Pence the next year to get some prospects back, had they wanted to. And if they really liked him, they had the opportunity to lock him up long-term before he could hit the open market. Since he was under club control, Houston didn't necessarily have to trade him to the highest bidder - they could have kept him until the offseason or the following deadline. I agree you have to make decisions for now and the future - but you also have to be willing to take opportunities when they present themselves. FWIW, here's the original thread here on the trade: http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=207415&page=2 Pretty wide mix of opinions there.
Nice reading. I think teams should not wait to the trade deadline to make moves if the team feels it needs to make a move. Phillies could probably have gotten Pence or another bat for less if they didn't let themselves get backed into a corner. At the time of the trade, the Phillies did the right thing, but their poor planning got them into a situation that they overpaid. Reading the part in that tread about the Phillies trying to teach Cosart to pitch to contact is funny to me considering Cosart is the master of pitching to contact now.
Definitely a difference between the 2, but there is no denying Beltran is a HOF-caliber player, and Pence was just a very solid player. At the time we did the deal, I was very happy with the return. I was surprised we got arguably their top 2 prospects (Dominic Brown was playing in the majors). Domingo Santana was incredible icing on the cake. Interesting to read how much fans complain about things they don't understand.
Ha...I guess Cosart gave up on developing the "spike curveball" that they said he was attempting to develop at the time of the trade.
