Maybe Hubie and Chuck, but Lenny I don't think is on par with them. But again we're playing what if. Again I have to give credit to PJ where other coaches failed before him.
There's no way to know either way. But even if the answer was no, just for the sake of argument, it only proved that Jackson was better than Harris. That hardly was enough to label him as the greatest ever. Same thing with his Bull team. The best you can argue is that he was better than Collins. So Phil could do what Collins and Harris couldn't do. That proves that he's the greatest ever?
I should get repp'd for making your argument for you, otherwise you would have been going down a path of destruction. :lol:
I thought the issue was whether Jackson was over rated and not who is the greatest coach ever. And even if the issue was who is the greatest NBA coach ever, I wonder who would it be if not for Jackson. No if's, and's or but's, has anyone accomplished more than him? Yeah, folks can say this and that coach could, should, may, etc., done what Jackson did. The fact is that none of them ever did and it is totally silly to insist something that is not factual at all. Speculate all you want about other coaches, but it will not matter because Jackson did what none of them could. There might also be a tendency here to trivialize the difficulty of winning even a single NBA championship. Try to listen to any player or NBA coach, those who have won at least a ring, and those who have not, and everyone of them will tell you the extreme difficulty of winning a championship and why anyone and everyone in the league treasure and dream of winning at least one of those trophies and rings. This fact alone should also stop those who question the validity of the Rockets' two championships. Now, talk about winning eleven championships.
Let's get it straight that I never said PJ was the greatest coach. But to ignore his accomplishments just because he has had the best players is kinda just hating. He still has to get those players to buy into what he's saying. So tell me what NBA coach is your "best ever"?
Look, MJ, scottie, Kobe none of them won without Phil. Phil hasn't won without them. Mj wouldn't have won without scottie, without paxon, rodman, grant. Kobe wouldn't have won with out Oneal, gasol, ariza, so on. You can go on and on. We love to give credit to one player, or blame one player and try to simplify something that is complex in nature. Basketball is a team sport and it is intertwined with system, coaches, decisions, and cohesion. Its just false, misguided, and elementary logic to say what you and simplify that he 'road coattails' or other players needed others so on, that is how basketball is played and he was apart of 11 damn titles with him as the head coach. There have been great teams in the past, it takes something special to put it together and even then it doesn't always happen. He is a hall of famer and one of the best coaches ever. Appreciate greatness, stop trying to arbitrarily decide some damn list.
I'm not sure how many times this has to be said. What coaches win without a HOF player on their team? Start naming them. Can't blame Phil when every coach in every sport that wins championships have a HOF player or two on their team.
Did the thought ever occur to you that maybe if they didn't have the greatest coach of all time they wouldn't have been in the playoffs at all, or wouldn't have had the 3-1 lead?
I was going to mention this, too. Rick Adelman is given a lot of love by fans on this board because he managed to keep the Rockets competitive after they lost Yao the last two seasons. They went from winning 53 games with a healthy Yao to winning 42 the following season. Phil Jackson coached a team that had only a two game drop off after the greatest player in the history of the league retired from his team!
To put it very mildly, it takes a huge leap of faith to believe that: Jordan & Co Kobe and Shaq Kobe & Co .. were going to win at least 11 championships between them anyway, even if the next best active coach was coaching them. There is not a huge difference in coaches. You wonder why Kobe didn't make the playoffs alone - well it's because the team was crap. Who's to say another coach wouldn't have them deep in the lottery? You never know. But what you do know is... Phil Jackson won 11 championships in 20 years. Pick any coach, and give him his choice of three existing teams and a 20-year span to win 11 titles with all those teams (at least 2 from each). How likely would they be to succeed? Highly highly highly unlikely. Just this year, only one of the Lakers, Heat and Celtics had the chance to win the championship. It's very possible that none of them do. No one will remember. But if Phil takes one of them all the way, the media will say he is just winning because of the talent on his team. Is that fair? Give credit where it's due. I don't like the guy, I don't think he's the most technically gifted coach, but whatever he does bring, it makes him at least one of the top 2 or 3 coaches of all time.
Overrated might be a stretch, but Phil Jackson worked with at least 2-3 HOFers on his championship teams. Who is voting Erik Spoelstra, a future NBA HOF coach? He would of been the greatest, if he won the Championships that the Rockets won. MJ left, no championships for PJ, MJ back, 3 more. He coached one of the greatest teams which has a lot to do with that than being a coach. He will be the greatest coach in NBA history in wins, but to say he had to do more than his HOF players is a stretch.
People keep saying that he's the greatest ever because of all the championships. That's how he is overrated. I have no problem saying that he's a great coach. There are a few coaches I would say the same thing. I don't think there is such a thing called the best ever coach. 1. Comparing the game over different eras is very subjective. 2. Different coaches are good for different kinds of team. I don't think there is a linear way to compare the qualities of different coaches. 3. Even if there is a coach better than everyone else ever, there is no way to know it because no two coaches have ever coached the same teams. Do you have any proof that other coaches (other than Harris and Collins--and even that was unproven) couldn't have done what Jackson has done with the same talented teams? For that logic, Auerbach would be the second greatest ever. Popovich and Riley would be the third... and so forth. Besides, winning a championship involves a lot of luck. Is luck also part of a coach's greatness?
If Phil Jackson wrote a book on coaching it would be 6 Pages Long Page 1: Blank Page 2: Phil Jacksons Coaching Rules Page 3: Rule 1: Coach the team with Best Player in League; until he retires. Page 4: Rule 2: Become the Coach of the team with new Best Player in the League. Page 5: Thank you for buying my book. Please Use page one and six as rolling paper. Page 6: Blank.
you are now comparing a player to a coach..... wow. HORRY WAS NEVER AN ELITE PLAYER, SO HE DOES NOT EVEN COME INTO THE CONVO. When comparing Elite players, they first must be elite, similar stats, and then you compare rings. good god
This. He has certainly had a fair bit of luck working with 3 of the best players of their generation and you can criticize him for not challenging himself when he took over the Lakers with juggernaut squad already intact BUT that doesn't diminish the fact he is a fantastic coach - one of the best of all time.
