Pete Rose Admits Betting

It's not a "lifetime" ban anyway, it's a "permanent" ban that allows for an application for reinstatement.

The text from the agreement, which was sent to the various teams at the time from the Commish:

a. Peter Edward Rose is hereby declared permanently ineligible
in accordance with Major League Rule 21 and placed on the Ineligible
List.

b. Nothing in this Agreement shall deprive Peter Edward Rose of
the rights under Major League Rule 15(c) to apply for reinstatement.
Peter Edward Rose agrees not to challenge, appeal or otherwise
contest the decision of, or the procedure employed by, the
Commissioner or any future Commissioner in the evaluation of any
application for reinstatement.

c. Nothing in this agreement shall be deemed either an
admission or a denial by Peter Edward Rose of the allegation
that he bet on any Major League Baseball game.

http://www.baseball1.com/bb-data/rose/agreement.html

Here is a link to the text of Rule 21:

http://www.baseball1.com/bb-data/rose/rule21.html

 

But that wasn't part of the rules when Rose and Giamatti hammered out the agreement. It only found its way into the Hall of Fame rules two years later (coincidentally, a year before Rose would've become eligible).

 

Well there's a nifty twist.

If the HOF is truly a 'museum' of baseball, then he (and Shoeless Joe) should be in.

But his ban on playing and managing should remain.

Sorry Charlie.

 

Indeed, and doubtless as a result of Rose's impending eligibility. To which I say, good for the Hall.

 

Tricky. I go back and forth on this. I think Rose's accomplishments as a player make him a no-brainer Hall of Famer, regardless of what he did after he retired from playing. Thus, he should be in the Hall, and he should be a first-ballot guy.

But betting on baseball is arguably sports' greatest sin, so I wouldn't let him near a ballpark in any coaching/consulting/peanut vendor position. His lifetime ban should remain intact, but allow him occasional conjugal visits to Cooperstown.

 

Well, I wouldn't let him hold a position within baseball at all no matter what, but I'd let the Hall of Fame thing go and allow him on the ballot.

Even Shoeless Joe was eligible for the Hall of Fame for decades. Only since 1991 has his eligibility been in question. Sixty years after he was given a permanent ban, he was made ineligible for the Hall.

 

Technically he was eligible - but I don't think there was any question that he was definetly not practically eligible for the Hall of Fame.

 

Well, there is already more Pete Rose stuff in the HOF then of any other player so he is already in minus the plaque. He should be left out of MLB though for his actions over the past 14 years. He should of admited his quilt when it all came out and it all would have been OK.

 

So why did Baseball not keep the same rules for Rose? They could have just as easily kept Rose out the same way they kept Jackson out for sixty years (actually, not quite that long).

And whose to say that a permanent ban even meant Shoeless Joe should not be eligible for the Hall of Fame? The Hall didn't even exist when the Commissioner handed down his ban of Jackson.

Landis was still Commish when the Hall was established. If he wanted his ban to extend to the Hall of Fame, he certainly could've done so. But it wasn't until nearly 50 years after his death that those rules were put into place.

 

Because there was no chance that Shoeless Joe would get even a shot at the hall, while there was a distinct chance Rose would. They closed a loophole with that rule.

Your theory presupposes that Landis thought there was even a possibility that Jackson would get into the Hall, and thus by not taking a step to prevent his entrance, gave almost tacit consent to it.

I would argue that Landis saw no reason why anyone would consider voting a man who took money to throw a World Series into the Hall of Fame, and considered the rule unneccessary.

 

I might well argue the same thing, especially since that remained true for nearly fifty years after Landis' death. Of course, we might also believe (since Landis apparently used the word "lifetime" when handing down the suspension) that he assumed that after his death, Jackson would be eligible (Landis died before Jackson did).

Plus, Jackson did receive two votes for the Hall in 1936, before Landis died (and two more in 1946, which was after Landis' death).

But I say that it's wrong to get someone to enter into an agreement and then change the rules on them. I imagine that one of the reasons Rose took the agreement was because it did not explicitly keep him out of the Hall of Fame. It was only after the fact that the rules were changed, specifically to keep Rose out (since no one had bothered to vote Shoeless Joe in during all those years he was eligible, and he is, as far as I know, the only other potential Hall of Famer who is permanently ineligible).

If it was that important that Rose be kept out of the Hall of Fame, they should've put that in the agreement rather than backdooring a rule change just to keep him out after he had agreed to a sentence.

The funny thing to me is that, I believe, if Pete Rose had been a football coach, his suspension probably would've only been a year. Alex Karras bet on football games, and that's all he got. Of course, he was never a good enough player to be considered for the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

 

I doubt they'd take anyone out of the Hall once he's in.

 

And here's another thing. The agreement stated that he could apply for reinstatement. Rose has done so...in 1997.

If it is cut-and-dried that he should not be reinstated, then deny the application. But to keep an application open with some vague stipulations for nearly seven years isn't cool.

Apparently, Rose confessed to Selig in 2002, and yet still no movement on approval or denial of that application for reinstatement.

I don't know what new information can possibly come out that could affect the decision one way or the other. The Dowd Report stated he bet on baseball (and on the Reds) back when this all came up originally. Requiring that he admit it would be a step toward letting him back, not something required by the punishment. And he admitted his gambling to the Comissioner over a year ago.

What new is going to come out that could affect the decision?

 

An article from just over a year ago.

Tuesday, December 10, 2002
Updated: December 12, 2002 1:58 PM ET

Proposals exchanged but many hurdles remain
ESPN.com news services

NEW YORK -- Pete Rose may finally be getting his second chance.

Baseball's career hits leader could know by the end of the year if baseball will agree to end his lifetime ban -- which could make him eligible for the Hall of Fame.

Rose and commissioner Bud Selig met secretly in Milwaukee on Nov. 25 and have been exchanging draft proposals that could end the ban, sources close to the situation told ESPN.com's Jayson Stark.

Nothing has been agreed to at this point -- including whether or not Rose will be reinstated or regain eligibility for Hall of Fame induction -- and while any potential agreement could still fall apart, it's conceivable a deal could be reached by sometime next month.

"It's a first hopeful sign,'' said Cincinnati Mayor Charlie Luken, who wrote twice to Selig last month urging reinstatement. Luken said he spoke to Bob DuPuy, Selig's top aide, on Nov. 27 and DuPuy said he would get back to him in about 30 days. (My comment: Did they?)

Negotiations are still ongoing on the terms of exactly what Rose will be asked by Selig to admit to before he is reinstated. In order to satisfy constituents who are opposed to Rose's reinstatement, Selig is said to be firm in his conviction that Rose has to admit, in some form, that he bet on baseball. (My comments: Okay, he's done that. Now what?)

The meeting between Rose and Selig was the result of a process that had begun more than a year earlier, in the fall of 2001, when friends of Rose -- including several former Hall of Fame teammates -- first intervened on his behalf with Selig.

It came 13 years after Rose, then the manager of the Cincinnati Reds, agreed to a lifetime ban from the game following an investigation into his gambling. Rose's playing career ended on Aug. 17, 1986.

Warren Greene, Rose's business agent, was at the meeting, as was DuPuy, and Hall of Famer Mike Schmidt, a high-ranking baseball official told The Associated Press on Tuesday, also on the condition of anonymity. Baseball and Rose have been exchanging proposals for more than 1½ years, the official said.

"There have been a number of stories reporting alleged conversations or meetings between commissioner Selig and Pete Rose," DuPuy said Tuesday in a statement. "Pete Rose applied for reinstatement to commissioner Selig several years ago and that application has been pending since that time. Given the pendency of the application for reinstatement, neither the commissioner or anyone in our office will comment on the Pete Rose matter further."

Rose applied for reinstatement in September 1997 but Selig has refused to rule on it, saying in the past he hasn't seen any evidence that would make him alter the lifetime ban. (my comment: Okay, then turn it down)

Rose has taken a far more conciliatory tone in his public statements about Selig in recent months. Rose's efforts to be less combative apparently played a role in convincing Selig to allow him to attend the Most Memorable Moments ceremony during the World Series.

Since their meeting two weeks ago, there have been subsequent conversations between representatives of Selig and Rose, and proposals have been exchanged, Stark reports. And it is clear that Selig is now more open to the possibility of reinstating Rose than he has been at any point in his decade as commissioner.

Rose took a flight to Milwaukee from Cincinnati on Nov. 24 and chatted with members of Marquette's women's basketball team, which was returning home from a game in Dayton, Ohio, according to the school.

Rose wasn't shedding much light on his talks with Selig.

"There are a lot bigger people I'm obligated to answer to first," Rose told Cincinnati television station WXIX through a personal friend on Monday night, "so my official comment is 'no comment.' "

"My opinion is completely predicated on if he admits wrongdoing," former commissioner Fay Vincent told ESPN on Tuesday. Vincent was deputy commissioner under then-commissioner A. Bartlett Giamatti at the time Rose was banned for life on Aug. 23, 1989. Vincent was named commissioner following Giamatti's death in the ensuing days after Rose's banishment. (My comments: Apparently not. From an article today: "Selig's immediate predecessor, Fay Vincent, read the excerpts and was outraged, concluding that Rose did not deserve reinstatement.")

"I know Joe Morgan and Mike Schmidt have tried to get Pete to admit he was wrong for years, but I don't believe that Pete will ever admit he was wrong and I don't believe that Bud Selig will ever reinstate him," Vincent told ESPN.

ESPN's Morgan spoke about the situation at the World Series, after Rose was given the longest ovation among the stars who appeared in a promotion before Game 4. Morgan said he detected increasing support for allowing Rose into the Hall of Fame. The Hall adopted a rule in February 1991 that excludes membership to those on the permanently banned list.

"But it all starts with Pete,'' Morgan had said. "He's got to come clean. I'm sure he liked hearing the fans cheering for him. But that ovation isn't going to get him into the Hall of Fame. He's got to make it right. It's up to him.''

If the terms of Rose's mea culpa are agreed to, there will be a probationary period before he is eligible for the Hall of Fame and before he would be reinstated and allowed to work again in baseball.

Hall of Fame pitcher Bob Feller, who has been outspoken about Rose's possible reinstatement, called the news "a publicity stunt by him and his people."

"I'm tired of talking about it. I'm fed up. He's history," Feller told The Associated Press on Wednesday.

Feller was among a group of Hall of Famers who threatened to walk out of the Hall's induction ceremonies in 2000 if Cincinnati Reds broadcaster Marty Brennaman had used his induction speech to campaign for Rose.

In a July interview with The Associated Press, Rose said baseball considered him "dead" unless they needed him for a specific reason.

Rose was welcomed to participate in ceremonies on the field during the 1999 World Series as part of baseball's All-Century team. He also appeared onfield during the 2002 World Series for the game's most memorable moments, voted on by the fans. His breaking of Ty Cobb's all-time career hits record in 1985 was among the top 10.

"In 1999, when I made the All-Century team, they needed me," Rose said at the time. "They won't call on me until they need me. They're hypocrites."

Rose was investigated by baseball starting in February 1989 while manager of the Reds. John Dowd, who headed the inquiry for Giamatti, wrote a report that detailed 412 baseball wagers between April 8 and July 5, 1987, including 52 on Cincinnati to win. Dowd cited evidence that included betting slips alleged to be in Rose's handwriting, and telephone and bank records.

After a legal challenge, Rose agreed to the lifetime ban Aug. 23.

''One of the game's greatest players has engaged in a variety of acts which have stained the game, and he must now live with the consequences of those acts,'' Giamatti said.

While the agreement contained no formal finding of guilt, Giamatti said ''in the absence of a hearing and in absence of evidence to the contrary ... yes, I have concluded that he bet on baseball.''

Giamatti died of a heart attack on Sept. 1, 1989, and Vincent, who had headed the investigation as deputy commissioner, took over.

Dowd wasn't sure reinstatement would be the correct decision.

''I would be very careful before I put him back,'' he said. ''I guess I come down on the side of history. To me, you can't have someone back in baseball unless they've cleaned it all up and have it all straightened out. If you don't, you have the game in jeopardy. What do you do with the bookmakers he's ever dealt with? What do you do with the people he owes money? Has he reconfigured his life?''

 

It honestly makes no difference to me whether he gets in or not. I do think that a player should be judged by his play on the field.

But the part that I don't like is how baseball seems to be toying with him. They get him into an agreement that would allow him to be voted into the Hall of Fame, and then two years later, they change the rules so it prevents him from getting into the Hall of Fame.

They say he can apply for reinstatement. When he does, they sit on the application for over six years and counting.

They make statements about needing him to admit that he bet on baseball to have his application for reinstatement considered. He does that, and yet they still don't move on it. And now, he's said to need to apologize.

Either come up with a list of things he has to do to be reinstated or deny his application and uphold the ban. Just quit toying with him and changing the rules.

 

If it were lifetime, then Shoeless Joe would be elibigle now since his life ended over fifty years ago, but he's not.

 

Now the situation's getting really amusing.

After finally 'fessing up, it's starting to look like there's enough opposition to Rose for him to still not get admitted back to baseball.

I love the excuse: "he didn't confess with enough dignity, contrition, and respect for the game!"

Bah. Grow up. They knew he didn't have any of those things before when they made vague statements about possibly letting him back in if he admitted the infraction. I think that the gambler got swindled. Couldn't have happened to a better guy .

 

completely agree

so what he admits to it, does that make it right, does re-instating him seperate what he did as a player with what he did as a manager, not really sure they can be seperated, which for me is the problem, sure he might as a player alone get elected deservedly so to the HOF fame, but does he career in another aspect of the same sport (managing) get overlooked or does it tarnish his playing contributions.....

for me I'm happy for the ban to stay on Rose, while someone like Shoeless Joe is still left in the cold