well i guess its the way we see things....i don't believe animals have free will...they do what they are functioned to do..... Mr. Meowgi are you a vegetarian?
That's their problem, they have no credibility. The only way they can get people's attention is through shock at their actions. They're like the bored kid in the back of class that acts up because he wants attention. He knows he not going to get unless he goes way over the top. That said, I don't condone PETA's actions. Their demands are ridiculous, as are their protest methods.
I know 100% that my cat has free will. No, but sometimes I wish I was. I do try to be mindful of what I am eating, meat or not. And when I do eat meat I give silent thanks to the life that I am eating. I do think trying to live in a way that reduces suffering is important, even though I'm not that good at it.
Let me preface my statements by saying that I'm a vegetarian. I chose not to eat meat during high school because I felt that personally I just wasnt happy with doing it. However, despit this I probably have a slightly more conservative outlook on Animal Rights and Animal Welfare. The first thing to note is that one unique thing about humans is that we are sentient. We know we exist and we know we think. This characteristic is shared by several animals as well. (Whales, Dolphins, Horses, etc...) And it is this unique characteristic which I believe can provide a distinction in our killing of animals. There's no reason why killing or torturing a sentient animal is acceptible. The one response by those opposed to animal rights is that we're special and animals can't feel the pain. That is true for many animals but not all. It is this special class that I believe warrants some consideration for true animal rights. There's no reason to injure and kill an animal that can feel and understand that it is being harmed. However, beyond that other animals shouldn't be mistreated for fun but I can see the merit of scientific programs on mice. Mice are not sentient and don't really have emotion or show that they know they exist. Now for those who say plants feel pain and what not. Those studies have virtually no scientific credibility in mainstream science. They have been popping up for years now and no one ever takes them seriously.
The premise of the PETA article is exactly why I went vegetarian in 87 and vegan in 93. I don't lead a cruelty-free lifestyle, but I try to. When I learned about slavery in elementary school, I was mortified. I was badly bothered by the practice of slavery but I was bothered equally by the idea that it had been A-OK in the eyes of the general population. I spent the next several years thinking about what was acceptable now that would similarly be regarded by future generations as wholly unacceptable in order that I, at least, wouldn't be a party to it. I absolutely believe the practice of slaughtering and eating animals will be regarded as unthinkable, unnecessarily brutal and grotesque by future generations. Make all the arguments you want in defense of your chosen diet. I can't say when it will happen, but the wanton (and entirely unnecessary) cruelty of a non-vegetarian diet will eventually be considered downright villainous.
Batman, when we have "replicators" that can turn a vegetarian slush into something that looks and tastes like steak, you will have won your battle. Truly, I admire those like you who are disciplined enough to follow lifestyle restrictions like that. I am a slave to my Mother's cooking, and wholly undisciplined. One of my life's goals is to preserve the cooking of my Mom and my grandparents, who are (or were) classic "East Texas" comfort food stylists. Keep D&D Civil!!
Food is not necessary. There are yogi's in India who have gone years without food. All the live on is water. Hunger is a state of mind, not a right. Also what about David Blaine?
Rocket River: I get your angle and frustration on that, and I will agree. And I am okay with Peta for the most part, acutally, not always, but ususally. On this, what they are trying to say, in my mind, is that human consciousness is capable for justiying massive massive cruelty - just look at some examples of what the popular culture has found acceptable in the past. Nazis, slavery, Native Americans. It does not mean the cruelties or sufferring are of equal value, they are not. And I think that slavery and Nazism are the most remarkably unjustifiable and hideous crimes of the modern era. But, the point of the piece, in my mind, is not to equate, compare sufferring, but to point out that "just because everyone does it," that does not make "it" okay or even moderately humane. And that I do agree with, and as a vegetarian for ethical reasons, I think of that often - will people of future eras look back on factory farming, and the truly mortifying conditions therein, in shame? I sort of think they will. It is not at all to compare a chicken's discomfort and torture with that of a human being. It is, however, a suggestion that the human mechanism to rationalize and justify sufferring without thoughtful consideration of another creature's agony is well documented in our history, and that there are dots that connect big and small acts of cruelty. I can see how it would make you nuts, though. Dude, if I were black and had ancestors who lived through the absolutely unjustifiable conditions of black america, especially in previous centuries, i might be awful ******* sick of everyone gravy-training my ancestors pain for political purpose. "My auto-insurance went up becuase I am a 25 year old male, THIS IS JUST LIKE WITH THE SLAVES!!" I seem to hear alot of comparisons with civil rights and so forth. I'd be pissed. Hell, i am pissed and I am white as a refrigerator. So yeah, maybe a bad call on Peta's part, they do make their share of bad points, but their basic organizational premise - that humans seem to be by and large okie-dokie with the absolutely inhumane treatment of animals that created their Chik-Fil-A - is totally solid. "I am not vegetarian because I love animals. I am vegetarian because I hate plants." - A. Whitney Brown.
Right on Chucky Brown! And props to the veg-heads who've posted. Lots of respect. We're down to meat just a couple of times a week. If that. There actually is a huge variety of tasty food you can eat. But, alas...the aroma of a good barbeque -- and the burning flesh thereon -- will always be my downfall. And the wife comes from a long history of carnivors. So...i'm stuck on the darkside.
C Brown, et. al.: If PETA is worried about the cruelty to these animals, a much better fight would be how to more humanely treat livestock. The main factor there would be how to treat them just as humanely, for roughly the same cost. I'd fully back any research to that end. But to say that is what PETA is doing is false. They want all livestock to be let free and live through old age-a very implausible and impractical solution.
I respect the fact that you have the conviction to follow what you believe and as an American you have the right to do so. One question for you and Bullard4Life and other vegetarians/vegans/whole foods market enthusiasts (free range food/less cruelty). Most of the vegetarians and vegans I know are quite liberal and are usually very pro-choice. I just find this striking and I feel that a baby fetus would feel more pain and deserves less suffering than a fish? Then again, i'm pro-choice (its not my body and i have no right to tell people what to do with theirs) but i'm the first in line at McDonalds when its 99cent quarter pounders!
Where is GreenVegan when you need him? We had some great discussions and he never painted me, a bonified "meat-a-tarian" and hunter, as a cruel neo-nazi bent on domination of all living things with a penchant for suffering. I respect the views of the vegetarian or vegan movement as i believe most followers are sincere in their aim to reduce suffering. In the end, what's wrong with that? Most of you who are flaming the veggie contingent on the board as hypocrites because they choose to reduce suffering in the world AS BEST THEY CAN or calling them out for being sissy's don't have the stomach to take your own meat "off the hoof". RR, the pictures make you mad because of the comparisons, but are you willing to deal with what a slaughterhouse REALLY is? Same for anyone else--Hayes, Moniker... Do you slaughter your own animals or think that steaks just magically appear in plastic wrapping devoid of the animal that they were once a part of? But, I digress, because I LOVE animals......and they taste great too! Big up Hayes, Bacon fills my life with joy....mmmmmmm
That is not my impression. I seem to recall PETA negotiating with McDonalds to do something fairly incremental, like accepting beef from farms with 90% or higher record of the cows actually being dead before they are skinned (some farms fail to actually kill more that 70-80% of their cows before skinning them, which is f******* unacceptable and inhumane). I mean, I might sorta ask McDonalds to freaking go with 100% kill-before-skinning farms, that seems fair to ask, but Peta was negotiating for 90%. I think that is how that went, I am not positive of the percentages. But I dont know if PETA's actions are really as extreme as their publicity. And while I prefer the vibe of the humane society - sorta pleasantly vegetarian, almost Canadian in its' "sorry to bother you but please do not support canned hunting facilities" vibe - but dude, PETA gets more results. They offend some people to their core, sometimes justifiably (Rocket River comes to mind), but if you are a vegetarian who wants to see change, PETA's record is more successful - and reasonable - than their over-the-top publicity stunts and materials would suggest. It's always been an issue for me. How to support the results without endorsing their BS propoganda on research animals (look bungholes, the research <i> helps animals too </i>), or their occasionally offensive and wrongheaded tactics. It is not always easy to defend them. They are like the Vernon Maxwell of my team - they cause heart attacks until you give up on them, then they score 33 in the second half of Game 3 to beat the Suns and eventually steal the series.* The time they sent Anna Wintour, the editor of vogue $500 for a brain image to check her head after she published a particularly cruel fur layout was pretty funny. Whatever. PETA is tricky. *Feel free to email me my prize for bringing up basketball in the D&D forum.
I think it varies from person to person. I'd say overall I'm very liberal, but I am extremely pro-life. I don't believe in abortion in any case except threat to the mother's life. Not trying to disparage anyone else's opinion on the issue, but that's how I see it. I think that most vegans, etc. who are pro-choice would probably deflect it by saying that fetuses are collections of cells, not live animals, and don't feel pain, etc. That would just be my guess.
To each their own.. PETA has offended me with their tactics too many times. Almost every argument they throw out there is chock-full of hyperbole. I mean, there has to be a sane animal rights group out there? I'm not sure I could ever support PETA's behavior, no matter how noble the end result may be.
