perhaps we're forgetting that francis is still a pretty good player

Timing, are you trying to refute his point that shooting guards have less responsibility than point guards? That's his point, and you didn't refute it. "The tremendous responsibility that goes with being the 2nd best player on a high profile league champion?" That sounds very nebulous to me. What specifically are these responsibilities you speak of? We're talking about the court, and Steve is the centerpiece of his team. Kobe isn't.

I also remember when the Kings beat the Lakers in L.A. in Kobe's third season. Tariq Abdul-Wahad blocked Kobe's shot twice in the fourth quarter, once on a triple-pump fadeaway with less than 5 minutes left. It's his third season, and Kobe is taking triple-pump fadeaways in the clutch against one of the best one-on-one defenders in the league? It wasn't just those two shots, either. Tariq made Kobe look stupid that whole game. This last season was Steve's third. He's farther along than Kobe at this point.

His defense isn't as bad as you make it out to be, but it could use a little work. His passing is fine, it's just that his teammates don't make shots. If they could, he would pass more. Steve doesn't have much of anyone to lead, and the guys he does have are all young and immature. The claim that "Kobe is a better leader" is rather debatable, because all the guys who get time on the Lakers are seasoned vets. Do you seriously think Horry, Fox, Fisher, Shaw, Richmond, and Grant and Rice in their time, need Kobe to lead them? Please. Besides, Shaq is the centerpiece of the team, whether I like it or not. How many mature, veteran players are on the Rockets? Willis and Williams, who are both gone now. Rice doesn't count, because he hasn't played any significant time for us yet.

Same for every other player in the league. This statement means nothing. Stuff like that leaks out, and nothing like that has ever leaked about Steve.

Winning and losing? Put Shaq on Steve's team. Steve would win. Put experienced veterans who don't need their hands held on Steve's team, along with Shaq. Steve would win even more. It's easy to "handle the media better" and "have a more mature general attitude" (this is also a very nebulous statement) when you're winning, due to having the most dominant force in the league on your team. I also wouldn't call having feuds with Jackson and Shaq mature.

 

With regards to Francis, imo, he's a dime a dozen. There are plenty of players that have averaged 22/ /7/7 in their third year in the league. As for shot selection, forget about the fact that he averages more points per shot than Iverson. He's a ball hog.

 

I like Stevie.

And I don't think Mike Bibby is better than him. I expect him to have a great season with Yao on the team. Mmm, just don't know whether he deserves the max.

 

Originally posted by vj23k
-He may have airballed two...he missed at least 3-5. You said that Kobe in his rookie season was more mature than Steve is this season. This has nothing to do with his being 19 at the time.

Since when was missing 3-5 shots a sign of immaturity? If he'd made them would that have made him mature? Like I said, the fact that he was on the floor as a 19 year old in an elimination game on a team full of veterans speaks to how talented he was and that they in fact felt he was ready for the challenge.

-Players do need rest, the fact that he was in the game doesn't mean that he had shown the maturity to earn it. He sure didn't show it after getting onto the court.

Nobody rests your best players in the last minute of an elimination game in favor of a 19 year old just because. C'mon now, that's not even being serious here.

Right...Because Kobe in his first couple of seasons was not mature. Steve has only been in the league a few years and is always mentioned as a top 5 PG(Most of the time, a top 3).

Hold up there buddy. If the Lakers had the shooting guard equivalent of Matt Maloney starting (like we did at the point here) when Kobe was acquired you can rest assured that Kobe would have likely started every single game from day 1. As it was, Eddie Jones was already there and a pretty darn good player on his own even if there were reports that Kobe was killing him in practice. Kobe was the best guard on that team the day he showed up.

Steve entered the league as the number one option on a pretty bad team. He learned on the fly and led the team to a respectable record. His second season, he nearly led his team to the playoffs in one of the most stacked conferences ever. Those Rockets(Statistically) were the best team ever to not make the playoffs. This does not necessarily mean that Steve has great maturity, but it sure does take away from your argument(That he is immature).

So if the fact that we have yet to make the playoffs doesn't necessarily mean that Steve has great maturity how could it take away from my argument that he's immature? Why don't we point to Steve's committment to improvement and to team as a sign of maturity? The defensive improvement. The improvement of his decision making. The evolution of leadership skills. All things that are clearly evident in Kobe's game. Are those parts of Steve's game measurably better now than they were 3 years ago? I realize it's only three years and I recall Gary Payton struggling with that as a young player but eventually that's gotta kick in if he's really "the franchise".

Seriously, you have not given many examples of Steve's immaturity. You mentioned his talking "noise", but Tracy McGrady, Shaquille O'neal, Gary Payton, Vlade Divac, and many other players talk a lot more noise than Steve does

All of those guys have something in common, the playoffs.

Hell, even Kobe talks about as much trash as Steve.

Kobe's a 23 year old All-NBA player with 3 championship rings. He SHOULD be talking trash.

You then mentioned his slapping the backboard. Those are isolated incidents that cost the team a point, but usually resulted in some momentum for the team.

Isolated incidents? Didn't he have 19 or 20 techs the other season? I have to think at least half at the minimum were backboard slaps and gooning. Usually resulted in some momentum for the team? What's our record when Steve slaps a backboard? lol

 

Originally posted by Drexlerfan22
Timing, are you trying to refute his point that shooting guards have less responsibility than point guards? That's his point, and you didn't refute it.

His point is a generality on positions and their responsibilities. Francis has about as little responsibility as possible being a point guard on a team that relies heavily on isolations and three guard lineups where Moochie is the primary ball handler. Francis doesn't play John Stockton out there, he plays a hybrid point guard/shooting guard/power forward. He'd rather break out on the wing to get a dunk than lead the break like a point guard. He doesn't set up an offense or anything of the sort.

"The tremendous responsibility that goes with being the 2nd best player on a high profile league champion?" That sounds very nebulous to me. What specifically are these responsibilities you speak of? We're talking about the court, and Steve is the centerpiece of his team. Kobe isn't.

That's not accurate. Kobe handles the ball as much as or more than any shooting guard in the league and as a first team defensive player he's charged to guard a variety of positions, unlike Steve who can't guard anyone. Kobe is also Mr 4th quarter a lot of times as Shaq's free throw shooting usually makes the Lakers shy away from him late in games. Kobe does all the pentrating on that team as well. When the Lakers need a bucket they call Kobe's number, when the Rockets need a bucket they pick a number out of a hat. There's your responsibility on the foor. That doesn't even take into account Kobe reeling in his game for the benefit of the team which certainly displays responsibility and maturity.

I also remember when the Kings beat the Lakers in L.A. in Kobe's third season. Tariq Abdul-Wahad blocked Kobe's shot twice in the fourth quarter, once on a triple-pump fadeaway with less than 5 minutes left. It's his third season, and Kobe is taking triple-pump fadeaways in the clutch against one of the best one-on-one defenders in the league? It wasn't just those two shots, either. Tariq made Kobe look stupid that whole game. This last season was Steve's third. He's farther along than Kobe at this point.

Steve is farther along as a 25 year old than Kobe was as a 20 year old? That's kind of a funny statement, his game is possibly but not his basketball IQ. You know last year I remember this play where the game was on the line against Seattle and Steve isolated and drove on Ruben Patterson for a pull up jumper that got stuffed in his face. He should have known that the Kobe Stopper could play the Stevie Stopper huh?

His defense isn't as bad as you make it out to be, but it could use a little work.

How many more 30 point Steve Nash or Gary Payton outings do you need as proof that his defense blows?

His passing is fine, it's just that his teammates don't make shots. If they could, he would pass more.

The decision making on his passes is terrible. He can't run a break and he'd rather make the Rod Strickland pass than a John Stockton pass. He lacks the fundamentals of passing from the point guard position. It's not his fault though, he's not a point guard.

Steve doesn't have much of anyone to lead, and the guys he does have are all young and immature. The claim that "Kobe is a better leader" is rather debatable, because all the guys who get time on the Lakers are seasoned vets. Do you seriously think Horry, Fox, Fisher, Shaw, Richmond, and Grant and Rice in their time, need Kobe to lead them? Please.

Steve has all young guys but no one to lead and Kobe has all vets who don't need leadership. Does anyone anywhere need leadership in your eyes?

Anyways, I don't see Fox, Horry, or Fisher waving Kobe away when a big bucket is needed. They need his leadership on the floor to win. That's pretty obvious. Again, when the Lakers need a bucket it goes to Kobe and when Houston needs a bucket it goes to whoever.

Same for every other player in the league. This statement means nothing. Stuff like that leaks out, and nothing like that has ever leaked about Steve.

Not true. The Houston press is always asleep at the wheel and the Rockets benefit from it greatly in hiding dirty laundry. They have a hush hush policy in Rocketland that doesn't exist in bigger markets. It all starts with Rudy basically, that's one of the reasons why people want to play for him. He doesn't jack people in the press like George Karl, or Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan, or Larry Brown.

Winning and losing? Put Shaq on Steve's team. Steve would win.

Win what? Penny Hardaway won with Shaq too.

Put experienced veterans who don't need their hands held on Steve's team, along with Shaq. Steve would win even more.

Are you telling me that if we put the most dominating player in the league on Steve's team along with experienced veteran talent that we'll win more? That's a pretty bold statement man.

It's easy to "handle the media better" and "have a more mature general attitude" (this is also a very nebulous statement) when you're winning, due to having the most dominant force in the league on your team.

Yeah Glen Rice handled it pretty good, so did Penny. I wonder how Paul Pierce, Tim Duncan, and Nowitzki can pull it off by not playing with Shaq. They must be extra mature.

I hope Steve raises his game this season because damn we need it like a mutha.

 

I don't hate Francis either, but how much longer do you live with his immaturity and selfishness... ??? What I want is a team that doesn't b**** and moan about the struggle of being in the freaking NBA !

Having said that, if Francis does not demonstrate more of a commitment to defense, and assists, as well as decrease his off the court B.S., then I will (as stated in other posts) be one of the first on the trade S.F. bandwagon It is possible to have addition by subtraction !!

If an "Andre Miller" brings overall better team chemistry, and court discipline (B-ball I.Q.) to the team at the point, then THAT would improve the team. Steve may have come out early but he is no where near the B-ball maturity level of a Magic, or Isaiah, or other hall of fame point guards when they came out. (I've seen Pete Maravich, and Steve is NO Pete Maravich !!

ALL pro sports are about is winning NOW!!! Management can try to sell fans on "Potential" all they want, but their just trying to put butts in the seats, so they can make $$$. Being a Rockets fan is NOT like being married - I don't have to bite my tongue in order to avoid the fall out.

I agree with others who said they would trade Steve for some of the better players in the league!! I would trade S.F. for Baron Davis right now!!!!

 

Timing, I'm getting tired of getting into long, drawn-out arguments (nothing against you personally). I've done this many times since joining this board. I'll leave these points for you to consider and then just stop posting on this thread.

1. I never claimed Steve was a natural point. I did say Steve had the most talent of any modern era point (meaning Stockton, the greatest point ever along with Oscar and Magic, doesn't count). Never did I claim that he had developed this talent. I rate Steve behind Kidd, Payton, Davis (this could change soon), Nash, Miller, and Bibby (who's really not as good as everyone makes him out to be). I see Steve as a hybrid guard. He's not really a point, as you say (I've never disagreed with this), but he's not really a shooting guard either. Like Dajuan Wagner, he's "just a guard." At least that's how I see him.

Look, I'm not talking about one shot. I was pointing out the triple-pump fadeaway in the clutch as extra-poor decision-making. My point was that Kobe wasn't getting anything on Tariq the WHOLE GAME. I doubt the same was true in the game you speak of.

Payton and Nash drive to the hole far more than almost anyone in the league. The difference between a 20 and a 30 point game is having someone reliable back there that you can depend on to block or alter a shot, which Steve doesn't really have. Cato is too lackluster and Griffin is too green right now. You'll notice I NEVER SAID HIS DEFENSE WAS GOOD, it's just not at Chris Mullin-like proportions, as many of you seem to believe.

You think Kobe is the centerpiece of his team? I don't. Fine. We'll agree to disagree.

I like that you argue my points and don't attack me with insults, as many have before. But please don't read things into my post that I never actually said. That DOES tick me off.

 

People need to stop comparing Stevie to Kobe. They're apples and oranges. Kobe's a 6-7 SG who's encouraged to dominate the ball in the triangle offense and plays next to the most dominant player (not best) in the NBA. He beats people with his long strides to the basket superior airtime and killer (Jordanespue) fadeaway. Stevie's a 6-3 PG playing on the 5th worst team in the NBA (by record) with the worst frontcourt in the league who plays in an isolation style offense with guys who can't shoot on a kickout. He's got a solid jumper, amazing quicks, and the strength to finish inside with the big boys despite being smaller. You need to compare Kobe to other 2's like McGrady, Vince, AI, Ray Allen, and Pierce. Yea, he's still the best 2, but there's not a huge dropoff to the other guys.
Secondly, look at all the point guards in the league, and think about who you would want in instead of Francis.
1) JKidd - Yea, even though he's still got no shot, he's a leader, pushes the ball up the court, plays both ends, and clearly makes his teammates better.
2) GP - He's better but much older. He's a leader esp in the 4th quarter although he tends to try to do it all by himself. Not a more intimidating defender in the league and is efficient on the offensive end in all categories.
3) Francis - See above
4) Baron - Pretty close to Steve in build, game, but lacks an outside shot. I also don't trust his knees. More able on-court leader at this point.
5) Bibby - small but showed a lot of heart in the playoffs. He's got a pretty good shot, passes well, but lacks size and doesn't really play great D either.
6) Miller - Nobody ever gets to see him play, but he's got a solid pure PG game. Shoots better than you think and has a good head on his shoulders. Doesn't have nearly the athletic ability as everyone listed above.
7) Stockton - If he weren't 60 years old, he'd be at the top. True PG with an underrated shot that h can hit whenever he wants to. Not flashy but he's not the NBA leader in assists and setals for no reason.
8) Nash - Looked pretty damn good this year with those crazy shots and streaky 3's but he's not better than Francis on an equal team. He's small, takes advantage of his green light to put up good stats but doesn't try to play D (which is a rule in Big D).
I really think we've taken Steve and his abilites for granted a little bit. Yea, he's got things he definitely needs to work on, most notably defense, on-court leadership, running the break,making teammates better, seriousness about health, but I wouldn't trade him straight up for any other PG in the league except JKidd right now. He wants to win badly, and he hasn't had the team around him to do so the last 3 years. I think we'll all be in for a pleasant surprise this year as Stevie and co. learn how to play better team-ball and we ride him to the playoffs.
First things first though, Steve, you need to sign on the dotted line.

 

perhaps we're forgetting that francis is a REALLY GOOD player

2nd best pg in the league

ROY

starter on the all star team

 

This reminds me of that story where rumors of certain players didn't want a guy to be drafted, rather they wanted to trade him. Only they changed their mind once footage of that guy's game came out.

Steve's got to recover from arm surgery for 14-16 weeks. I wonder how this story will come out.

 

Timing,

All right, I enjoy reading this board, skimming the various topics, noting the arguments for the pros and the cons, contemplating the issues a little bit and then moving on with my day. But, I'm sorry, this sub-thread of Francis bashing that you've created is just ridiculous. I don't want to get involved in a back-and-forth spew with you, because a) You and I both know it won't be constructive and b) I know you'll argue until the cows come home, something I frankly don't want to waste my time doing. I do, however, just want to say this, because for some reason, at least through what I've read, no one seems to have mentioned numerous reasons that come to me off the top of my head why Francis is (and this is a key phrase coming up here, so pay attention) a "mature young man" (a young player who may not be the most mature player in the league, but has certainly showed the steps of a man who would like to be his team's leader in the fullest sense of the word one day, similar to the extent the Dream has been in the past).

On and off the court, Francis is committed to winning. The 2001-2002 Rockets were a horrible team without Francis. What was it, a 15 game losing streak? There's all kinds of stats, we all know them, and I don't remember them off the top, but basically they started off the season 5-1 with Francis with a frontcourt of Cato/KT/Rice (horrible) --- albeit to weak Eastern Conference compitition, and proceeded to go 7-5 until Francis went down with injury... then they lost 15 games in a row! You're persistent in your argument that Francis doesn't know how to play point, lead his team, etc., however, the point guard's primary fucnction is to make sure that the offense runs smoothly and the team wins games (winning games--- how else would you rate a star PG's success? i don't care if Francis has 6 or 12 assists in a game, I just care about whether he got the W or not--- something he seems to do). Francis does that, plain and simple. He leads his team, and he is an effective team leader. They played near .500 ball with him in the line-up, in the West, even with him playing with migraines, etc. and they played atrocious ball with him out. His teammates seem to love him (esp. Cuttino and Moochie as well as Walt, Rice and Cato if my hazy memory is correct on that one), and I see no reason to believe your speculation that Rudy may be covering up any beefs he has with teammates. Maybe Rudy is hiding aliens in his basement too. Hey, ya never know, the truth is out there... Give me a reason to believe that he's bad for the locker room and I'll consider it, but I'm not going to buy 100% speculation based solely on the notion that Rudy likes to keep these things hush-hush, so maaaybe he's doing that with Francis, esp. when Francis seems to have a very good relationship with his teammates.

Now back to maturity... the man has garnered national praise (Sports Illustrated off the top) for playing with his migraines, knowing how important he is to his team. I'm no doctor but I do know that migraine's are suppossed to be a major b**** to joe schmoe, not to mention a professional basketball player. I remember I was a bit skeptical as to how bad they were for a while ("bah, they're just headaches... play man, play!" sorta thing), then I read an article laced with quotes from his teammates as to the migraines' severity as well as his maturity. I remember coming out of the article realizing how strong his desire is to continue playing; I was truly impressed.

Check it out, I found the article: http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/sports/bk/bkn/1226232

Note these quotes from it:
"This is a white light only Francis can see. This is a slow throb that pulsates inside his head until he feels like screaming.

This inexplicably blunt ache brings sleepless nights and nausea and even has caused Francis to temporarily lose his hearing or have blurred vision.

"The guy is fearless," Jones said. "He'll play against anybody. But then there's this. That's why this is so frustrating for him."

It also is why it's what you didn't see in Francis' performance Thursday night against the New Jersey Nets that showed so much about what's ticking inside of him.

Some 16 hours before tipoff, Francis was in the grip of another migraine. Sometimes they last up to three days. Sometimes they last just a few hours.

This one came on late Wednesday and lingered throughout the night. Francis couldn't sleep, couldn't move. He called Jones early Thursday to say he couldn't make the morning shootaround and didn't think he would be able to play.

By midday, Francis was visiting another neurologist but itching to play...

In the meantime, amid the frustration and dark, nauseous nights, Francis has shown something else difficult to see or touch. He has beaten the invisible pain. He's reached a level few others have reached.

Francis' triple-double performance of 23 points, 12 rebounds and 11 assists in a 103-98 loss to the Nets on Thursday night was phenomenal, considering how the day began. Combined with Cuttino Mobley, Francis helped account for all but 13 of the Rockets' second-half points.

"Brilliant," Rockets coach Rudy Tomjanovich called it.

An hour before tipoff, Francis sat in front of his locker looking altogether miserable. His eyes were closed, his head craned back.

But in the fourth quarter of a game seemingly slipping away, Francis put on an amazing display, scoring eight points during one stretch and pulling his team within one shot of a tie.

"It takes time to earn a place as a leader," Rockets center Kevin Willis said. "When he does things like he did tonight, it shows what kind of player he is for this team."

Francis spent the night nauseous and miserable. As late as an hour before the game, the Rockets were not sure he would play. More than once early in the game, Francis had to take off his jersey during timeouts and have towels draped over his shoulders...

But even though you can't see the strain Francis is enduring or the pain he feels, one thing the Rockets no longer need to find is, as Tomjanovich put it, "a warrior.""


THIS MAN DOESN'T SHOW MATURITY ON/OFF THE COURT??? Pleeease, give me a break... this articel sums it up best... Kevin Willis has been in this league for 17 years and even he said that Francis is truly earning the title of leader, both through talent/numbers and the intangibles/leadership/determination. Rudy T: "Brilliant", "a warrior". But then again, I'm sorry, I should value your opinion more than a 17 year NBA veteran or a man who's been in basketball for over 30 years as a player, coach, etc. who work with the man day in and day out.

All right, I've gotten sick of typing so I'm going to cut my argument short, but basically I want to reiterate that Francis is a mature young star, earning the true right to be called leader.

You said that Francis has had 19-20 techs? Try 12 (and Kobe had 14 btw, Shaq 15 and Karl Malone 20 --- is Malone immature? how about Shaq?). And I remember that at least 2 of those techs were complete bull****... I'm talking about the 2 he racked up against Stockton/the Jazz which got him ejected while he was on his way to having a career night (so I really say he earned 10 at the most). I remember that the fine for the second one was taken back by the NBA (admitting it was bull****). When he was ejected, did he throw a tantrum? No, he didn't, and given the circumstances, I wouldn't have blamed him if he did (I know Kobe, T-Mac def would have, and I wouldn't blame them either). He simply looked confused and walked off the court quietly (maturity). Oh, and I remember you saying something about his techs not motivating the team... well what about that one against the T'Wolves (I think) with a minute left that supposedly fired up the Rockets and made them come back down 7 with a minute left to win it, no OT? Not a leader? Doesn't motivate?

When Francis was embarrassed at the Slam Dunk contest this year, did he cry about how they changed the rules with that stupid "imitate a past dunk" thing that ruined any chance he had to get into the next round when they gave him that 360 one hander (he can't even palm the ball)? No he didn't, he was very mature about it and said that those are the rules this year and he lost fair and square under those rules (as he should have said--- maturity).

At the Draft Lottery this year, when Ahmad Rashaad was asking him about next season and talking about his injuries and this and that, what did he say? "If we don't make it to the playoffs next year, I know it's on me" (takes full responsibility for the team's record, sign of a leader, maturity).

Your best argument to Francis being immature seems to be his inadaquate D thus far, implying that he's immature for not taking care of it. Given that he's a third year player with his hands full giving you a well-rounded 22/7/6 and playing with migraines, I'm sorry but I'm not going to write him off as "refusing to get better" after only his third year, esp. with the dedication he has shown in mind. Another thing, you bashed him for not doing the shoulder surgery when the Rockets knew their season was over. OK, so he opts to keep playing with the pain in hopes of trying to form some late season chemistry to take into the following season so they'd get off to the right foot, and you chastise him? This, while he's getting it taken care of in the beginning of the offseason, rehabing over the summer (unlike AI)? So he's immature and not a leader because he's sacrificing his summer so he could play out last season AND begin next season healthily with a Rockets team that has now played together more?

I'm sorry, but this is just absurd. I've never heard anyone question Francis' maturity off of this board. His teammates, the coaching staff and the media have all applauded him, yet they're all apparantly wrong, as BBS cynics apparantly know something that his co-workers and the rest of the world don't.

All right, I'm done with this post, too much time wasted already. Hell, I rarely do it, so I can afford it every now and then.

 

Wow. Brilliant post Varunan.

I see that you registered back in May, but haven't posted too much. Hopefully we'll start to see you come out and post a bit more in the future because that was some quality stuff.

 

Cabbage and Varunan,
Bravisimo!

Damn, a point guard can only be good if he something to pass to. People need to lighten up.

 

Interesting stuff.... Steve Francis has his problems ie. he's not a true PG, does not push the break effectively, etc. but trading him or moving him to the 2 and dealing Mobley is not the answer imo. I have consistently felt that the better solution is to build the rest of the team in a such a way where the backcourts strengths will be complemented and weaknesses will become less prevalent. This is part of the reason I want to move the #1 pick and get a ball handling 3, but the guys that get paid to make the decision chose this route and it could pan out well. Also, a third guard that is more of a true PG is essential when you basically have two shooting guards starting; the Rockets apparently have gone this track with drafting Maddox; I dont really see Moochie as a great long term fit behind Francis and Mobley.

The Rockets now have two very good high post passers in Yao Ming and Mo Taylor. The weakest point in Francis's game and Mobley's for that matter are their abilities as playmakers and decision makers. One of their stronger points is their ability to stop and pop esp from mid range. Its remarkable that both these guys have such consistent mid range games even though they have not really had any frontcourt to complement them. Thus, I think you will see the decision making on offense shift more to the frontcourt court guys while Francis and Mobley become better at their off the ball game. Mike Bibby used to have the ball in his hands a large majority of the game with the Grizz but became more of an off the ball jump shooter in Sacramento. He still makes decisions on offense in Sacto, but nowhere near what he did with the Grizz; I think Francis and Mobley will both move into this direction.

The whole problem with trading one or both of these guys is that they play with so much heart and desire and definitely seem to have what it takes to win the big games in crunch time. You could have more textbook sound players like Andre Miller, but no one that could be acquired in a deal would have the heart, desire, winning mentality, no fear to take the final shot, etc that Francis and Mobley do. This type of characteristic is very very difficult to quantify.

Winning at playoff time really requires a need to be able to score in a freelance type fashion. This means having a big man that can score outside of the flow of the offense and/or a guard that can get his shot at any time when plays break down. This is a huge part of the reason the Jazz could never get past the Bulls. The minute the Jazz were taken out of their set offense by a tough Bulls defense, Utah found it very difficult to freelance and get shots outside of their offensive scheme. Stockton was a great textbook point guard that was deadly within the set plays Utah ran, but the minute he was taken out of that situation in huge game situations by an elite defense, the Jazz were unable to freelance. The Rockets are blessed with two very good freelance players that can create their shot in almost any situation, and hopefully a developing back to the basket threat in Griffin. The plan should be to complement Francis and Mobley and not trade for a textbook PG like Andre Miller.

 

I think it's absolutely ludicrous that people are trying to argue their way to "Kobe isn't light years ahead of Francis in almost every aspect of the game".

Phil Jackson himself said that Kobe carries more of a load on his team than any player he has ever coached on any team. That includes Jordan, Pippen, and Shaq. Think about it.

Kobe is the go to guy in the 4th. He defends the best player under 6'8 every game. He dominates the triangle offense to perfection. Manages to co-exist with Shaq. Got 3 rings. Still managed to average numbers comparable to Steve, our FIRST option.


We're not saying Steve is a dud. We're saying he has ways to go before he can become an elite player. He may very well do it this upcoming season.


Ming/Cato
Taylor/Griffin
Rice/Nachbar
Mobley
Francis


Plenty of people to pass it to. Even Cato gets him assists off those alley-oops. Let's see how it goes.

 

repetez, s'il vous plait.

The so called 'bashers' don't deny that Steve Francis has incredible athletic abilities. They're just not homers that are willing to pronounce Steve Francis as 'the coming'. I would be ecstatic if Steve tightened the belt a little bit and became more of a classical point guard... with his athleticism he would of course vault to the top of points, hell, of all players. Even Mobes said "with someone else running the point guard duties, it's over".

And these are serious issues, right? I wish basketballologists (I'm just a basketeer) could quantify what it means to have a scoring point guard (no self appointed kids thanks). Right now, it does really seem like we just have two shooting guards, right??? The camps right now seemed to be comprised of "damn, Steve lights up the stats and, whoa... he jumps really high" and the other side, "our offense seems to be perverse! Whoa, finally a BIG MAN is on the horizon, and here's the point guard yelling about it! Shouldn't he be able to narrow down the tos and stay on the floor for a while before he makes the comments that TB, Clutch et. al. ascribe to him?".

Both of those viewpoints, imo, are valid. It's just finding the truth when two compelling viewpoints exist. I myself am going to try to play Pollyanna... if the team signs Francis long term, so be it... he's a Rocket. The first time though that Francis waves Ming out of the low block and loses the ball or injures himself, I reserve the right to be frustrated. If I notice for a second that Mobes or Steve just pass to one another (Mobes is far more guilty of this) or to Moochie, then I'll be doubly pissed.

It's jhmo. It doesn't mean I'm a hater; but it probably does mean that I've been spoiled on the big man game for a looong time. Hell, if you ever watched Dream... a 6'3" shooting guard playing ping pong off of the floor just doesn't do it.

 

AMEN, Varunan.

And can we shove it with the %@#*ing Kobe Bryant comparisons!? Yes Sane, Kobe is ahead of Francis in almost every aspect. He's a 6-year vet! Francis is a 3-year vet! Kobe is a 2, Francis is a 1(/2). Kobe is 6-7, Francis is 6-3. Kobe has a dominant big man, Steve doesn't. Quit the comparisons! They make no sense at all!

 

Hey, if no one's said it yet... welcome to the board, Varunan! Great, great post. You said what a large number of us here are thinking and did it extremely well. Thacabbage has a way of creating the kind of threads we should see more of. Francis is a pretty good player... nice understatement, thacabbage.

MManal, you may have found one of the best examples of what drives RT and CD's thinking. I hope so. The season can't come soon enough. (hell, the summer leagues can't get here quick enough! )