perhaps we're forgetting that francis is still a pretty good player

How do I get in on this MASH deal A-Train?

 

My point is that Kobe right now is light years ahead of Steve in terms of maturity. In fact Kobe as a rookie was probably more mature than Steve is right now. It boggles the mind what a mess we'd be going through if this weren't a team protected by the RudyT code of silence. If Steve can't get it together here, he probably can't do it anywhere.

 

Kobe has also been in the league longer then Francis, has played with a stable team longer then Francis, and comes from a basketball family thus he has more experience in handling himself then Steve does. But Kobe being light-years more mature then Francis? Was it just me, or wasn't Kobe getting into fist fights with Shaq just a few years ago? And wasn't Kobe asking to be traded to a weaker team to get better stats so he could be the man and show up Shaq and the Lakers?

 

even so, kobe doesn't need to be as mature

in reference to the original post, the reason people preach bibby, nash, miller are better pg's than francis (and that they'd rather have any one of them than francis) is that the point guard requires maturity unlike any other position in the game. sure, francis is talent personified, but the point guard is the metaphor of leadership. it is controlling tempo, intelligence and respect

thecabbage, you named kevin johnson, magic... even they had what francis did not. talent is something that has greater precedence in ratio for an SG, not a PG

we all know how talented the rockets are, but we all know if we fail to beat the lakers, kings or dallas, it won't be about talent, it'll be about maturity, patience, and intelligence, both individually and in the x's and o's

 

Kobe is 23 and "has also been in the league longer than Francis" even though he skipped college entirely and did I mention he's 23? Played with a stable team... hmm... Del Harris, Kurt Rambis, Phil Jackson, and the resignation of Jerry West. Well I guess that's more stable than having the same coaching staff and GM. Kobe getting into fist fights a few years ago when he was twenty? In other words a year younger than Steve before he shafted the Grizzlies and pouted his way to the stage?

 

Kevin Johnson was as hot-headed and wild on the court as Francis was. He had trouble setting the tempo and got a reputation as a "shoot first" PG until he finally settled down.

 

BTW I agree that Francis is a special talent but who among the other special young players in the league would you NOT trade Steve straight up for? Pierce, Baron, Kobe, McGrady, Nowitzki? From strictly a player talent standpoint I'd trade Steve straight up for all of those guys in a second.

 

The energy this guy spends on the floor is incredible. The fact that he was one of our top two rebounders for the past couple of years hints how undermanned our team was last year. Now that our depth is supposedly way deeper, Francis's leadership (or lack of) becomes more and more important to this team. A team captain has a right to voice his opinion, even if people can't make sense of it. And though people are going to question his maturity and his overflated sense of his team and himself, we're just gonna have to wait and see.

The "Jason Williams Rule" shouldn't apply here, because JWill's maturity was questioned what he did <b>on</b> and off the court and made the team unstable in the progress. Maybe replacing a Bibby type player like Andre Miller will provide short term benefits, but as Steve grows older and loses more, he'll be bent more on winning and being like his idol, #23. The potential for that, IMO, is enormous.

 

I am not a Francis basher, but I have suggested trading Francis. More specifically I want to package him with either Eddie or Ming and tack on Kenny Thomas and if neccessary Nachbar, for Tim Duncan and Jesus Parker. I think that the combination of Duncan, Mobley, and Yao or Griffin would make us favorites for the title. I could even live without getting Parker and run Moochie and Tierre/Tito at the point. Duncan is almost good enough to get you a championship by himself and with a dynamic scorer like Cat and a good frontcourt player like Griffin or Ming, we would certainly be one of the top two teams in the league. Would SA do this? Maybe, if they don't think they can resign Duncan. But I would at least put in the call, whether Houston fans want to keep Steve or not.

 

Originally posted by thacabbage
What is there for Steve to get together?

His defense? His passing? His attitude? His leadership skills? Those are all a good start.

You sound as if Steve constantly fights with teammates, is late to practice, and has been charged numerous times for drug use.

We'd be the last people to know if Steve were fighting with teammates or was late to practice. RudyT is excellent at keeping things botted up. Not that your statements are the bar for what's labeled immature. Being a coke head and beating up teammates doesn't represent all that is immature.

How is Kobe so much more mature than Francis?

That's not obvious? His handling of teammates, the media, leadership, winning and losing, and his general attitude is far more mature than Steve's. Francis talks a lot of noise and Kobe does it. Francis slaps backboards and plays Rucker ball while Kobe gets his defense in gear. Francis wants to play that meaningless regular season game instead of flying to the Mayo clinic for help in diagnosing something that could threaten his career. Kobe is all about winning and Steve isn't right now. I can't actually believe you asked that question.

Bryant plays shooting guard, a position with much less responsibility than point guard, and plays on a championship team with a structured triangle offense. I just don't understand how you've arrived at the conclusion that Francis is immature.

You know you can't tell me Bryant has less responsibility in this passage and then later on tell me how Bryant is the 2nd best player on the league champion and casually forget the tremendous responsibility that goes with being the 2nd best player on a high profile league champion. The responsibilities on Kobe's shoulders far outweight that of Steve's. Kobe is playing high stakes poker every year while Steve is over playing Go Fish.

Del Harris and Kurt Rambis were both around when Kobe was still considered immature. Jerry West just recently resigned so that is not relevant to the matter. The Lakers are generally accepted as the most respected organization in basketball. Kobe Bryant is the 2nd best player on the league champion. If Steve Francis was in that same position, I'm sure he'd look much better.

Here you're actually mixing my statements. The question here was organizational stability playing a role in Kobe's maturation. Quite clearly having three coaches and a major executive change is a more unstable situation than having the same staff for your whole tenure in the league. How the Lakers are respected doesn't mean anything to their stability in the development of a particular player.

It's actually kind of funny for you to say that if Steve Francis were in the same position as Kobe that he'd look much better. Any player who would help his team win 3 straight titles would look better than one who didn't. There is little doubt that Kobe is a better player so if you're insinuating that Steve would have helped the Lakers to those same 3 titles then I think that's a pretty bold statement when Steve hasn't even played in a single playoff game yet.

What exactly is your point here? None of the teams of these players (except the Hornets) would trade their respective player for Francis. The point of my thread was to emphasize the futility in trading Francis for a <i>lesser</i> talent (such as Andre Miller) simply due to impatience. Also, that you cite Baron Davis as a superior to Steve Francis simply hurts your argument by demonstrating your extreme dislike for Francis. Francis led a talent void squad to 45 wins in the deep Western Conference. Davis has won roughly the same amount of games in the Eastern Conference on teams with names such as Eddie Jones, Jamal Mashburn, PJ Brown, and Elden Campbell. Take a look at Francis' and Davis' head to head matchups. The Rockets always win and Francis always wins the matchup.

My point here is your comparisons to MJ, Kobe, and Hakeem as being "special" players who needed time to mature. MJ threw up 30 points a game shooting 50% as a youngster, Kobe has three rings before age 25, and Hakeem was a 20/10 guy since day 1 and never missed the playoffs 3 years in a row despite having to lead a team loaded with the likes of "The Blade" Buck Johnson. There are special players and then there are SPECIAL players. Steve isn't quite in the elite first tier of young talent in this league.

Well this last season there was one head to head matchup. The Rockets won 111-104. Baron put up 34points (13-25 shooting), 11 assists, 3 rebounds, and 2 steals to Steve's 30 points (10-21 shooting), 8 assists, 8 rebounds, 4 steals and 6 turnovers. That looks like a draw to me pretty much. Cato had 13 points and 15 rebounds so that doesn't speak well for talking up PJ Brown and Elden Campbell. Mashburn didn't play. If the Hornets had a homecourt they could have battled for the best record in the Eastern Conference which isn't saying a lot compared to the Lakers or Kings but it's saying something compared to the Rockets. Plus, Baron is 2 years younger than Steve.

 

thacabbage, I agree with your entire post, except...

1. Na, KJ was better.
2. Jordan didn't start passing when Pippen arrived. He never started passing. Pippen was the point guard on that team.

I do agree that Francis is the most talented point currently in the NBA, excluding dinosaurs (cough cough... Stock*cough*ton). It would be truly foolish to trade him. Think about it, is there ANYONE in the league right now better at driving by people? NO. It would be very tough to make an argument for anyone else in that category. NO ONE has his combination of speed, quickness, agility, and ballhandling. Maybe AI used to, but he's not quite the same after all the injuries, plus he never had the same ballhandling skills. The only guy in the league who could hope to match would be Jason Williams (the white one), but his IQ is about 15, so that won't happen.

 

His play on the court: Just fine. No problems at all.

As a leader off the court: Immature...needs to work on this and get some of Kobe's maturity.

 

Francis is an excellent player, he hustles all over the court.

What he is not, is a superstar player. He makes far too many mistakes to be considered one.

He is an amazing athlete, but I still question his basketball ability ABOVE his shoulders.

What he has going for him is that he is still young and has not had a true veteran mentor to show him how to win.

I am not giving up on him, but he has got to show serious improvment on defense and his decisions with the basketball.

The one thing I am most worried about though is Menieres disease, I hope Steve can lick this thing, or at least get it under control, because this team is poised to take off, and it will fly a lot higher with him then without him.

Oh, and Cabbage, welcome back bro !

DaDakota

 

Puhlease.

Do you not remember a certain series in which Kobe airballed, what, 3-5 shot attempts in the closing moments of the clincher against Utah seasons ago? This was the season in which he had plenty of guys to pass to, Shaq, Jones, Van Exel, Horry, Fox, yet he decided he was shooting those shots, and did it.

There was a reason that Jones started in front of Kobe for a season(And part of the next season as well)

Beautiful post thecabbage.

What are these jabs at Steve's maturity, leadership skills, and attitude supported by?

If Steve wasn't mature before this offseason, he has proven (to me at least) that he has become much more so. Steve has almost gotten over his migraine problem by virtually cutting salt out of his diet. I'm not so sure of this, but I have heard that he has cut back on his alcohol intake as well.

Steve Francis is our franchise player. Right now, I would take Steve over any point guard in the league besides Jason Kidd(Taking Gary Payton would give us a very small window to go for the title).

 

Originally posted by vj23k
Do you not remember a certain series in which Kobe airballed, what, 3-5 shot attempts in the closing moments of the clincher against Utah seasons ago?

It was exactly 2 shot attempts and Kobe was exactly 19? Fact checker please.

This was the season in which he had plenty of guys to pass to, Shaq, Jones, Van Exel, Horry, Fox, yet he decided he was shooting those shots, and did it.

What does this have to do with anything? If anything the fact that Kobe was given the responsibility of being on the floor at the end of a playoff game speaks volumes to his talent level on a team with Shaq, EJ, Van Exel, etc.

There was a reason that Jones started in front of Kobe for a season(And part of the next season as well)

Yeah, because he was a teenager adapting to the NBA.

What are these jabs at Steve's maturity, leadership skills, and attitude supported by?

The last three seasons.

 

Ditto

Franchise is our best baller, even ahead of Ming.

 

-He may have airballed two...he missed at least 3-5. You said that Kobe in his rookie season was more mature than Steve is this season. This has nothing to do with his being 19 at the time.

-Players do need rest, the fact that he was in the game doesn't mean that he had shown the maturity to earn it. He sure didn't show it after getting onto the court.

-Right...Because Kobe in his first couple of seasons was not mature. Steve has only been in the league a few years and is always mentioned as a top 5 PG(Most of the time, a top 3).

-Steve entered the league as the number one option on a pretty bad team. He learned on the fly and led the team to a respectable record. His second season, he nearly led his team to the playoffs in one of the most stacked conferences ever. Those Rockets(Statistically) were the best team ever to not make the playoffs. This does not necessarily mean that Steve has great maturity, but it sure does take away from your argument(That he is immature).

Seriously, you have not given many examples of Steve's immaturity. You mentioned his talking "noise", but Tracy McGrady, Shaquille O'neal, Gary Payton, Vlade Divac, and many other players talk a lot more noise than Steve does. Hell, even Kobe talks about as much trash as Steve. You then mentioned his slapping the backboard. Those are isolated incidents that cost the team a point, but usually resulted in some momentum for the team.

 

Why all the Kobe/Francis comparisons? Right now, Kobe is That Guy Who Reminds Everyone Most of Michael Jordan. He's not as good yet - but I sort of get the feeling while watching him that he could be, and already is at times.

Super. But that has nothing to do with Francis. Just as far as maturity goes - they both need more. Kobe needs to stop punching teammates, and Francis needs to quit whining and play defense. Francis jilted Vancouver, and Kobe demanded a trade mid-season. Why don't we just all acknowledge that both need to make progress on the maturity front?

Unfortunately, it does seem that Kobe has a better work ethic than Francis. Luckily, Steven does seem to be determined to play well, which counts for something.

Francis has amazing athletic ability. He has a good jump shot. He's at least a threat from the 3 pt line.

He's not a great passer. But hes' better than many think. Looking at the Cavaliers, Mavs, and Kings (and Miller, Nash, and Bibby) you see one specific big difference: those 3 offenses are predicated upon movement and hitting jumpers. That's going to tack on assists to any PG's #'s. And if Francis were averaging, say, two more per game... we wouldn't be having these discussions.

Would playing with guys like Peja g ive Francis 2 more per game? I'd wager so.

Incidentally, someone mentioned a # of PG's they'd trade Francis for. I strongly agree with 1: Baron Davis. He plays in the East, on an extremely well ballanced team. And his team still did nothing.

 

Just three points of my opinion, okay four...
1) I wholeheartedly agree with Timing. I had to point this out since we're different beasts regarding politics.

2) You guys are revisionist sons of wankers. Dream went on A MAD streak that season. Unfortunately, some lower leg thing came up, it's history. But at the time, we weren't saying "look at this Francis fellow nearly taking us to the playoffs". We were all saying "godDA** DREAM!". I think you guys are being dishonest to insinuate anything else. You guys might feel put out because your old girlfriend left you for Toronto. But don't act like it's impossible to slight your current girlfriend, only "because she can jump really high". Sheez, you're like eight year olds.

3) I forgot what my third point was. It seemed so enlightening at the time. I am curious to see what Francis will contribute to a team with a frontcourt. His physical abilities are so conspicuous, because the team has no other talent except for Griffin and Mobley. If Ming or Griffin actually turn into something of merit... and we all agree that without a frontcourt Francis' abilities will just mark him as an also ran; but if those guys develop, then they're going to get touches in the low post. It's all fine and dandy to switch up plays; put Ming on the block and then out at the high post... but in pressure situations; but in a situation in which you have two low post options, where will Francis' abilities be put to use? A man in the post means... oh I forgot, he can just wave those guys off for some perverse reason.

but golly gee beave he can jump high and he plays on my team

4) hopefully short, because *gasp* I need some water, but don't forget to put the homer tags around all of these silly claims about Francis' being the best point guard since Magic. LMAO. I don't know if I have read anything more silly. Is there some mental block on giving, say... Stockton props? The guy is the greatest point guard living. Injuries are undoubtedly part of the game, and you know what? If he was ever injured, you didn't know about it... because he played. He also blew apart Magic's records by... ohhhhh.... hmmm... like 5+ ****ING THOUSAND ASSISTS.

I'd also like to point out that I'm not even sure Francis is in the top 5, hell top 8 point guards right now; but I felt like I had to chat on something obvious before I wasted time on pointing out that say, Kevin Johnson, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, Baron Davis, Scottie Pippen, Terrell Brandon, Mike Bibby, Sam Cassell, Steve Nash, Mark Jackson, John Stockton (the list goes on)... have all accomplished more as distributors, than has Steve Francis.

Actually here's a thought: from here on out why don't we have basketball analysists (sp) talk about specific point guard things. People can talk about what Francis does well as a point guard and what he doesn't do well as a point guard. I doubt there's a single person here that doubts the fact that Francis 'can jump really high' but many of us think of him as just a short shooting guard.... not a revolutionary point guard... a short shooting guard.

What is it that the 'lovers' (since they're invariably have to be camps) see in Francis that leads them to believe he'll be a great point guard? There might not be a reason to be traditionalist when it comes to point guards! Fine! But there might not be a reason to insult everyone's intelligence by suggesting that Steve Francis is second only to Magic Johnson as a point guard, lofl.