I use my real name on this board. I think it's pretty obvious that I don't worry about people knowing "who I really am". Dude, don't be an ass. I didn't slam Muslims. I slammed two people who happen to be Muslim. I think Bill Clinton's a piece of ****. That doesn't mean I'm slamming white people. In my first post, I slammed the idea that Islam's treatment of women is misunderstood. To me, and pretty much anyone who isn't an apologist for the excesses of Islam, there is no need for equivocation on that topic, just like there's no need to equivocate on the KKK's treatment of blacks. Those things are similar strictly in the sense that they're very, very obvious and interpretation is not necessary. Did I know it would piss people off to make that indirect comparison? Absolutely. Hurts, doesn't it? Maybe next time the people who were offended will think twice before referring to the GOP or conservatives as racists, KKK members, or Nazis. I could have used any number of analogies to make my point there-- "Misconception about red light: it means stop"-- but I specifically chose that one because I get so tired of it being used against conservatives. Now, I've given you wide latitude in this thread to insult me and other posters because I could tell from the first that your emotions were driving your keyboard. We're all done with that now-- I've had my fun and I've allowed you to take your shots in return-- so I expect it to end. That goes for everyone in this thread. As for banning Azadre, what would be the point of that? He serves as an excellent object lesson for the other posters.
So according to you...I'm a racist twit who lives in a "muslim" country. Welcome to America. If it was more PC, there would be a lot more posters echoing my thoughts
Let me tell a true story that I witnessed in NY shortly after 9/11/01. It was the Saturday after 9/11. I was going to visit a friend of mine who lives in midtown manhattan. I stopped at a corner deli to get some chips and soda. There was a line of about four people ahead of me. The clerk spoke with an accent and was of Arabic heritage. The first guy in line paid for his purchase then looked at the clerk, and said very passionately and sincerely. "God Bless you, sir. Bless you and your family." The clerk was obviously surprised to hear that, and seemed very touched. "God Bless you, too... You too," shouted the clerk. The patron knew the clerk was probably scared about the back lash from 9/11, and it was the patron's way of just saying, I won't blame everyone of a certain race for what 19 a#*#holes did on 9/11. The next patron paid for his goods, and thanked the clerk, and with similar feeling and sincerity to the first guy, told the clerk to take care of himself, and wished him a great day. The clerk was again visibly pleased with this. The next couple of people were also more friendly than normal, and by the time I got to the counter, the clerk was smiling broadly, and moved with a different pep and energy. I wished him a nice day too. About a week later, someone at the place where I get my haircut was going out to a deli to grab a drink, and told me he was going to the deli accross the street instead of his normal deli next door. He said that the one accross the street was owned by an Arab, and he wanted to support the guy and wish him well, so he wasn't worried about being blamed for 9/11. Anyway, nobody stared at the store clerk suspiciously, and they went out of their way to be nice to the guy because they wanted to make sure that he knew not all people mid-east descent were going to be blamed or viewed with suspicion. It's understandable that people after 9/11 might be more suspicious of mid-easterners boarding a plane, but it's still irrational. I think when someone starts feeling those fears, a good idea might be to go somwhere public(In NYC Atlantic AVenue near downtown brooklyn would be a great place.) where they are likely to meet with people of middle-eastern descent. They could then force themselves despite any suspicions to be nice and friendly. Go back regularly for at least a few weeks. Talk to the person, ask some questions, talk about the person from the middle-easterner's job, or family and kids. Most of the time the people will be happy someone is interested and it will help demystify some of the mystique around them. It will help people see that not all Middle-easterners are sympathetic to Al Qaeda, have feelings, don't want to hijack planes etc. It could help the Arabic person, feel less like an outsider and more fondness for America, and Americans in general. If people do things like this it will breed goodwill. If everyone behaved like that, there would be far less sympathy for any of the terrorists, and a greater appreciation for others, for everyone involved. I know it sounds sappy to try something like this, but I guarantee you it feels really good, and goodwill breeds goodwill. Likewise suspicion breeds suspicion. The more people that try it, the more it will pay off.
Actually I mentioned that in response to people staring suspiciously at people of Arabic Descent so it did deal with race. The highest percentage of a vote a fundimentalist muslim received prior to 9/11 in Pakistan was I believe 4%. I may be off by a few percentage points, but it was definitely under 10%. Actually I know two different people from Turkey, and one of their families, they aren't anti-west in the slightest. I'm sure there are some people in Turkey that are and definitely people in Pakistan that are, but so what. Neo-Nazis in the U.S. can openly support Hitler, grab a permit and parade around shouting out that love. Many in Europe the Middle East and Africa aren't radicals either. The flying planes into the WTC, the FGM, the stoning of women for adultry, aren't the PREDOMINANT islamic traits. They wouldn't be news if they were. They would be the norm. However, the old news addage, 'if it bleeds, it leads' enables these stories to get coverage. Average muslims running their businesses, raising families, shopping for food and clothes, going to shcool, etc. doesn't get coverage. I think unintentionally the picture that you get from horrible acts that some followers of Islam have done makes it seem like it's predominant when it's really not. I think culture may play a role in both cases, but for me the nature of religion is evolving. I believe that peoples understanding of God is evolving and thus the more modern, the more understanding of God, and usually the less violent it is. If you can mention countries where there is Islamic violence, then it's certainly valid to mention countries where violence is instigated by another religion. Someone else in another thread mentioned Rwanda. That's someone's belief. Others have different beliefs. If everyone has to say there is no single good Islam, then you should have to stop saying we should go to war against Islam. 1400 years ago seems closer to the original Islam than anything the Taliban has done. If you are saying we are talking about what it looks like now, then you must admit to at least some degree that it is culture that has influenced it, even in the cases where bad people claim they are carrying out true Islam.
Nomar, if you have nothing with a milligram of intelligence, insight or wisdom to add to hot (but mostly civil) threads like this please don't bother to chime in. How we forget that 100 years ago women had few rights in America, a country many assert is, and always has been, a Christian nation. Even today you can go to many weddings and here vows that say it is the women's duty to obey the man. You also can rarely find a Christian church with women as their functional and spiritual leaders. I would argue these beliefs and traditions have been moderated in contemporary society by secular humanism and by applying constitutional principles more broadly--despite protest by some Christian fundamentalists along the way. (Before ya’ll jump on me recognize I go to my wife to a Catholic church and was married there. I have no problem separating some outdated traditions and literal elements of text with the central messages.) There is no reason the same could not apply to most of the predominantly Muslim nations provided we nudge them subtly socially and economically for a few decades. I think to compare many ME Islamic countries to where we were educationally and politically 100 years ago is quite fair. To judge Islam based on aspects of many of those countries to where our country and other developed countries are now is not reasonable however. On the note about profiling: Should we be fearful of our children going to school with White boys of gun toting parents because of the indiscriminant school killings of the last few years. Should anyone who has given any money or time to any pro-life group be under surveillance because of organized violence, intimidation and murders by militant anti-abortion fringe groups. Should we watch anyone with ties to any militia organization or right-leaning political organization and the NRA because that have publicly expressed a fear or even concern toward our federal government or federal abuse of power--shared rhetoric of McVeigh (how we forget the first major case of terrorism on our soil not that long ago was done by our own home grown and had nothing to do with religion). It is easy and may seem prudent to advocate profiling when you are not one of the profiled groups. But whether you fit in a profiled group can change with the wind if constitutional protections are not respected with the utmost care.
What is it that is blocking you from understanding that neither I, nor anyone else who has agreed with me on this board thinks ALL middle eastern men are bad people??? Did anyone ever say that? NO...but thats the way you took it and you decided that I was a racist. Do you want to know why the store clerk was so surprised and touched? Its because he EXPECTED to be profiled by Americans because of his looks becasue of what had happened on 9-11. He was so happy to find that Americans do not blame ALL middle eastern men for what had happened. And guess what, I (the one who you termed a racist) dont either. However, if I want to be suspicious (i so sick of typing that word) of men who look middle eastern..as in, be on guard...dont be rude to them...dont condone mistreatment of them...treat them as equal unless they start to give you a reason not to...but be on guard, I have every damn right to do so. It is NOT irrational...it is somewhat normal...especially in the northeast. It may not be worth worrying about to YOU...but it is to ME. I can understand why YOU think its irrational since perhaps you are either middle eastern or middle eastern looking. The fact that you cant understand why i think it IS rational to think that way shows your stubborness on the issue. A nice idea...honestly..im not being sarcastic. Unfortunately, my guess is that if I happen to come across one of the extremists in that group of people, he isn't going to let me in on his secret No offense but if any Arabic person is unhappy with American people or America these days, they dont have to stay.
NJRocket, if it makes you any happy I dont think you are a racist. I admit for the first couple of weeks after 9/11 I was looking at Arabic people a little differently. I did not treat them any differently, but still there was that sixth sense going off. You are not a racist, but somethings you do say can be a little hurtful to Muslims.
I guess there has been a little bit of misunderstanding. The reason I said racist was not because I felt that you believed ALL Middle Eastern men are bad people. I feel certain that you don't believe that. But I do feel that from your posts, you will be suspicious of a middle-eastern man for no other reason than he is of Arabic descendt. Yes, and it's sad that someone should expect that, when it shouldn't happen. I don't think after Tim McVeigh bombed the Oklahoma federal building, anyone was running away from white guys in rental moving vans. I agree that you don't blame all middle eastern men, and I guess racist has so many different meanings to different people. I should have explained what I meant. I don't mean to imply that. I do agree you should be on guard, and keep a close eye on your surroundings and people around you. I think you should be that way in general though, and not be suspicious of someone simply because they middle-eastern. That should not be the sole reason they are eyed suspiciously. It's odd because I find that in the Northeast it's almost the opposite. People here are less suspicious of middle-easterners. Much like the story I mentioned. I guess we each have different experiences. Anyway the reason I say it's irrational is because if you are at an airport and see middle-eastern men boarding a plane, the chances are vastly greater that they are people just like the clerk in the store, or law-abiding business men, or whatever, then they are terrorist sympathizers. That's why I believe going into predominately Arab neighborhoods and interacting will give people a more well rounded view, than just seeing their face on the news when someone gets arrested for being a terrorist. I'm not accusing the media of doing anything wrong on purpose, and I believe they should report that. But people need to watch it with the knowledge that for every picture they see on the news there or millions of middle-easterners who don't believe or act that way. He probably won't, but think of it this way. What if the guy is wondering if maybe the terrorists do have a point, he's unhappy with some of the aspects of the Patriot act or feels he's being discriminated against or whatever, and unbeknownst to you are anyone else he's leaning towards thinking the terrorists do have a point, even though he isn't sure about committing actual acts of terrorism. Then someone comes up to him, and is very friendly. That guy shows up again a week later, and talks more, and takes a friendly interest in that guys life. Maybe if more people would try it, he would start coming into contact with all sorts of people are friendly to him. All of a sudden he starts getting mad about terrorism. 'Yes,' he thinks to himself, 'some people are bad, but look all of these nice people who really are just treating me like a neighbor... they are so friendly.' And as the repor continues, you gain glimpses of understanding into a culture you only knew from news stories mainly on terrorism or whatever.(I'm not saying that's the extent of what you know, just that real interaction will increase anyone's understanding.) Or maybe the guy isn't really concerned either way, because he has his own problems to worry about but would never support terrorists. All of a sudden the more positive experiences he was with Americans, the more he's likely to keep an eye open for people who would want to hurt Americans. Even if nothing that dramatic happens, at least you gain insight you didn't have previously, and in turn so do those you interact with. There are no negative consequences, only positive ones. If they are unhappy with America, sure they can leave. But if they are unhappy at unwarranted suspicion, and ill treatment, they should stay. When something unfair happens leaving is seldom the best remedy. I think it's best to combat the unfairness.
you're right...unfortunately, you're absolutely right. and to be fair, azadre didn't say that Jesus was against womens' rights...but he said that Islam had a better record than Christianity...and unfortunately, what Jesus had to say and what Christians have to say are far too often not the same thing...I wish that weren't so. I think that's what's so convincing to me about the theology surrounding the fall of man and sin....we all just seem so messed up...and even the Apostle Paul said, "why do i do what i don't want to do?? why do i keep sinning when i don't want to?" Regardless of race or nationality, we're all broken...we all put ourselves before God and before our neighbors. Christ came and said, "look..there are two great commandments to simplify all of this...love God with all your heart and soul...and love your fellow man as you love yourself." If we could get those two right, what a better world it would be. I still hope.
FB- great post up there. I tried to moderate my lengthy post on profiling with moderation to make it clear that I do know that it is imperfect, unfair, and often a mothod of prejudice, discrimination and abuse. I'm afraid I've now come off as the defender of profiling, which certainly isn't a title I want. True, it's easy for me as a middle class white man to say, 'well, it's unfair, but that's the way it is.' I don't know what to say. The quasi-racist paranoia that has happened as a result of 9/11 is a special case here in the USA. Relative to the overall population of the country, percentage-wise the arab/ME population is quite small. Depending on where you live, not many americans come into contact with someone of that ethnicity, or worked with one, or been friends with one. Many americans can't even tell the physiological differences in race between arabs and Indians and Africans. This lack of experience, knowledge and understanding makes it much easier for race generalities and fears to jump into one's head. Shoot, I'm coming off as defending this stuff again. I'll just quit now. I'm fortunate because I grew up in the ME in Dubai. Several of my childhood friends (and crushes ) were Indian and Pakistani.
So if I were to say Christianity is a currupt religion, celebrating DEATH, and is based on the teachings of a CRIMINAL, you would think I didn't bash christianity(which IS BASHING the followers). Now that is a true portrayal since the Catholic Church is Corrupt, Everyone wears a cross with jesus on it(in which he was dying), and Jesus was a criminal to the Romans. Of course, lots of christians drink alcohol, fornicate and practice gultony. So does that make all those good christians, who say they aren't right, bad? A lesson for posters who are sick of being insulted by someone with power? Of course you probably get your kicks and giggles from insulting a "young" poster.
The band geek said fornicate. Haha. Khan - So what you are saying is that true muslims would respect women and that the middle east is not indicative of true muslim idealogy. I'm okay with that. DesertScar - FOR ME TO POOP ON
You too. I realized that I needed to do a better job of explaining what I thought. And make some other points more clear. I can see where I definitely did not make it clear that race can play a part, in an investigation etc. That's cool that you grew up in Dubai. I've spent a little time in the ME, really Africa(Morocco). I would love to spend a prolonged period of time in that part of the world, as well as almost every part of the world.
Nomar, good to see some evidence of a maturing brain in at least one of your comments, next time you can aim for two out of three.
I have been surprised by all the racist talk, which is spoken of incorrectly. If you are White and you notice Arabs getting on the plane, how can you be a racist? Arabs are of the same race,only with a different culture, as are Indians and Parkistanis.Although as you go east you will find more mixed races till you reach the Oriental Countries of Asia.Please remember we are all Gods Children and are Brothers and Sisters.(mankind)
What are you talking about? This makes absolutely no sense. I got on you and ol' what's his name. I didn't say you were corrupt-- sorry, currupt-- or that you celebrated death. I didn't say your religion did, either. I did laugh at one-- OK, a couple-- of your posts because of the stupidity content. The fact that you're Muslim was only brought up by you and the other joker. I would have nailed anyone who posted something that ignorant, regardless of race or religion. The fact that you're Muslim has nothing to do with it. I can't believe you'd seriously ask this or that I'd have to explain it, but yes, if you said, "Christianity is a currupt religion, celebrating DEATH, and is based on the teachings of a CRIMINAL", that would be bashing Christianity. If you said, "This one guy I know is an *******" and that person was a Christian, no, that would not be bashing Christianity. Azadre, this is the last time I'll say this. I do not have a problem with you. If you want to keep pretending like there's some sort of issue here, that's fine. Just understand that I could not care less if you want to play the victim here. I treat you like anyone else on the BBS: I reserve the right to ridicule stupidity.
