People who rank Bill Russell ahead of Olajuwon....

2 ways to rank: talent at prime vs accomplishments/career

For example, Ralph Sampson would rank high on talent during prime but low on accomplishments/career.

On the other hand, Kevin Mchale would rank relatively low on talent at prime but high on accomplishment/career.

 

"HO HO HOO! Fiction can be fun, but I find the reference section a little more enlightening!"

Check career playoff numbers: Russell's went up, just like Hakeem's, and Chamberlain's went down, just like Robinson's, which is the exact opposite of your claim. It would only make sense that Chamberlain would outscore him in individual matchups because that's what he did, but he didn't maintain his efficiency nor did he defend or rebound better or worry about making his teammates better and that's why he lost. If you want to talk about domination, winning 11 out of 13 championships is more dominant than scoring 50 points per game, ain't it?

As far as Hall of Fame teammates go, again, check the numbers and tell me how many of Russell's Hall of Fame teammates had Hall of Fame numbers or accolades and crossreference them to Chamberlain's teammates and tell me how favorably or unfavorably they compare. More times than not, you're right, Russell's teammates will come out ahead, especially early in Chamberlain's career, but certainly not late in their careers and not as much as the Hall of Fame will have you believe. The talent disparity was never so vast that Chamberlain, if he was truly that much more talented and impactful than Russell, could never have made it up just like Hakeem made up the talent disparity between his team and Robinson's. In fact, only one of them helped makeup for team talent disparities: Russell, when the Celtics beat a historically strong Sixers team (avenging the prior year's loss) and when they beat the Lakers in one of the greatest upsets of all time.

 

I disagree with that, because McHale had lots of talent, considering his post game was almost second to none and he was a very lengthy player. In fact, I would consider him to be almost like Pau Gasol on steroids.

 

Has highly respected as Hakeem is, he is still underrated. I know all about defensive stats weren't recorded when some of the older guys were playing and not to mention I'm a homer, but he's absolutely the most elite prototypical franchise center that ever walked the face of dog's good earth.

He lead a team full of role players to the title twice (no disrespect to Clyde, but come on).

And for all who disagree, I point my middle finger at you and say suck it.

 

The way I look at it is the Celtics would likely still win 11 championships if they had the a top 3 defensive center of all time and top 3 offensive center of all time (i.e., Hakeem) instead of the top defensive center of all time who was a very good but not top tier offensive player.

However, it's an absolute impossibility the Rockets team would have won two championships with Russell.

I just don't understand how you can call a center greater than Hakeem if you can't surround that player with the same rag tag band of role players and youngsters and consider them championship contenders.

 

Ya, I can agree with this. If he was as gregarious and open with the media as Shaq had been, he would by and large be rated higher than most people presently rate him. To me, he was the ultimate package. That being said - my only knock on Hakeem is he had a relatively brief window as the total package. He didn't reach unstoppable status until much later in his career than Shaq.

 

Imagine this:

Boston Celtics (90s):

C- David Robinson
PF - Chris Webber
SF - Scottie Pippen
SG - Reggie Miller
PG - John Stockton

Bench
Kobe Bryant (out of high school), comparison to John Havlicek
Kevin Duckworth
Rex Chapman
Christian Laettner
Dell Curry
D-League caliber player
D-League caliber player


Philadelphia Warriors/76ers

C - Hakeem Olajuwon
PF - Grant Long
SF - Cedric Ceballos
SG - Steve Smith
PG - Chris Childs

Haywood Workman
Jon Koncak
Clifford Rozier
Jud Buechler
Jimmy King
Donald Royal
Zan Tabak

Philly is a pretty good team and could easily win a championship in a down year, but stands no chance against the Celtics in a 7 game series.

 

Honestly, after reading pretty much everything I can on the topic I believe -

Hakeem was a more talented and better basketball player in a vaccum.

Bill Russell had a better career dominated his era at a level unseen by anyone not named Jordan.

 

the game is now, and always has been about buckets.

 

Wilt was one of the most amazing athletes to ever live. He did overpower Russell on most occasions. But here are some of Wilt's accomplishments:

1: Wilt could bench press 500 pounds through most of his career.
2: Wilt's vertical leap was in excess of 48". Well ahead of MJ's vertical.
3: The NBA changed the free through rules because Wilt could dunk a free throw under the old rules.
4: The NBA instituted goal tending rules because you just could not score against him from distance under the old rules.
5: Wilt actually averaged 50 points and 25 rebounds for a season.
6: Wilt actually was a dominant college athlete in track and field. And a champion in the high jump and distance jumps. And he more than held his own in foot races.
7: Possibly the fastest player ever from end to end on a basketball court.

 

Yet he is not top 10 player of all time, maybe 10th at best.

 

Some of these things aren't even proven to be true and ultimately none of it even matters. You could argue Wilt had a weaker supporting cast then Russell but even when he had a more stacked roster he still failed to win until Russell was already washed up.

Quite possibly the most overrated player of all time but the greatest statpadder. Also 50 points and 25 rebounds is great and all but adjust for pace and its a lot less gaudy. In fact, LBJ will end up being a greater regular season performer than Wilt when it is all said and done if you don't look solely at raw stats which is stupid considering how different the pace was.

PER gives a pretty good picture of how good a player's stats actually are though its not perfect.

 

In whose opinion?

 

Exactly it makes for a nice myth but ultimately it wasn't true. Bill Russell was miles better than Chamberlain defensively, a much better leader, and was a player coach later in his career.

Keep in mind Chamberlain never won it all when he scored on super huge volume only when he lowered his scoring and focused more on defense. There is absolutely no way Chamberlain can be considered better when there is such a disparity in championships. 11 to 2.

Thats like Kobe and LBJ playing in the same era and facing head to head. Kobe wins 11 championships. LBJ wins 2 but puts up better stats. Of course this would never be the case because to LBJ is frankly better than Kobe but if it were the case the argument for LBJ being better would be very weak.

 

Just having researched it yesterday everything I stated is provable and true. And head to head Wilt dominated Russell throughout his career. It was not even close.

 

Agree

 

This is a good way of comparing the two scenarios.

 

I'm sorry, I'm a huge Rockets fan and I love Hakeem, but this is just insane. In my opinion, the top 6 of Jordan, Russell, Abdul-Jabaar, Magic, Bird and Wilt are just non-negotiable.

 

Bird and Wilt are clearly negotiable. I would easily argue Shaq and Duncan over Bird and maybe Hakeem in the process, and I'd place all of them over Wilt, who I'm not a huge fan of. Wilt's in the Kobe tier.

 

There is hardly anything proveable regarding Wilt. There are lots of stories, but there just wasn't the attention towards these guys like there is today. There aren't any official measurements.

Who won? Russell won 11 titles in 13 seasons. No question Russell dominated the era, even if Wilt was dominating the stats.