PE.com: Payton prefers Houston, Minnesota or the Clippers

Sura is best suited as a backup and I wouldn't feel good about Lue starting either. I still don't buy that the PG's only responsibility in our offense is to advance the ball up court, pass off to the wing, and spot up. Of our three options, Sura is the only one capable of providing dribble penetration and he plays out of control at times.

I understand that if we don't get Payton, we won't get Mutombo, but to be honest I think adding Payton, a PG who can play 30 minutes, would make us better than Mutombo, a C who would play 15. I just think we'd be better off with Payton and a scrub like Scott Williams than just Deke. We're in good shape either way, but in reality both players would likely just be one-year-rentals.

 

I wouldn't mind getting GP with the TE and then Deke with Pike and Ward, or Gaines, or Lue.

Do Bulls want Spoon? Sorry, just cannot help it.

 

Depth is fine, depth is great, but in the end you have five players on the court in the closing minutes. When it's overtime, down by 1 with a couple seconds left on the clock, GP is someone who'd be on the floor bringing the ball upcourt for the Rox. Deke, on the other hand, would be firmly on the bench while Yao was on the floor. Especially with Shaq out of the West, I don't see center being a big area of concern for this club. Many teams run a 2nd PF out there, truth be told.

 

Hunter played at DePaul...I'm from Illinois, that comes with scouting reports from all over the midwest from the same guy's who scouted Cato for me. Hunter is fine, like Badiane is.

but...

If you read Orlando papers (and fan bbs's) from last season, Hunter is the same head-case version of Cato, and he just got traded and waived. Cato never got traded and waived. Ideas of Hunter..which I've had, is really banking on JVG thinking he can turn around the guy.

All that into consideration, there is clearly a reason JVG didn't take Hunter in the TMac trade, imo.

I think the Mutombo thing is silly. Don't ask me in this tread, why.

But, bottomline, I love GP, and if we got him, I'm sure I could convince you to come up to Houston for a game, but...but

We have a $5.58m TE and a major hole. I don't think that hole is at PG....I think that hole is playoff defense from Meow Ming and Juwana-come-into-the-lane, backed up by guy giving up Mo Taylor-made-moves

 

There is no end without frontline defense.

 

One can argue that, even last year, only Sura could possibly say he was a better defender than GP.

Ward was horrible, T-Mac, Lue, Pike... all horrible. Don't even try to tell me that GP is not even as good as Francis at frontline defense, that's laughable.


In terms of defense, I'm not worried. JVG's system will easily cover up for Payton's slip in defense and will make him look excellent again. Our help will know how to defend the pick n roll, and that's no problem.

If we can get Payton and Mutombo, do it. It's very possible. Use Pike and Griffin for Mutombo, then use the TE for Payton.

Besides, don't we have two TE's? Even if we don't, isn't the first one lage enough to cover the difference between Pike and Mutombo?

Pike makes 2.9M and Mutombo 4.9M. So you take 2M off the 6.99M TE, and you have yourself 4.99M left. Isn't that enough to get GP? Only problem would be dumping Lue/Griffin onto the Hawks or Clippers or something to clear some minutes and cut salary by a couple of million, and we're set. Griffin could be a nice piece in Atlanta and Lue would be a nice backup PG for the Clippers, whatever. All it would take is a second rounder to dump those tiny contracts.

After these trades, all I would be worried about is 3-pt shooting. Only Ward and JJ would be our solid 3-pt threats. Can we count on Boki to improve from last year? He shot 36% from 3-pt land last year... If we can count on him bumping that up to around 38%, then we could be in good shape. I'm sure GP, Sura and T-Mac will all be decent - none of them will dip to lower than 31%.. I believe T-Mac is actually pretty damn good, his % might even be great now that he has Yao.

It's very interesting. I don't mind making this deal, and if it doesn't work out..... Trade him for a 3-pt shooter from a team that needs caproom... OR, cut him and sign a 3-pt shooter.

 

Chicago cannot take back 2 players for Mutombo for 2 months from August 4th, which places us into Fall Camp. Surely you know the only possible trade for Mutombo is for one player, only.

Plus, the salary of Pike does not match Mutombo, so you'd have to lose some of the TE to get Payton.

The TE is only $5.58m. This has been confirmed by Larry Coon.

This new TE lasts for through the next trading deadline and through the next draft. Personally, I want to save that TE for the trading deadline and/or the draft.

So, you want to spend a June 30th, 2005 expriring TE on Payton?

That's really your only choice.

Show me the math where we can get Payton and Mutombo for our $5.58m TE, noting that they have just been traded and both have a 2 month wait on being traded for multiple players.

 

in the end payton will only be valuable if he can drain 3's for us which he hasn't proven proficient at doing. dikembe fills a much bigger void, frontcourt D, because right now we are quite lacking in that area. if we have to choose between them, i take deke.

 

Well, if CHI would do it, I'd wait until Oct 4 to get Deke. I'd rather trade Pike and Griffin, and not use the TE for him.

 

This is what worries me. Sure, I've love to improve our depth. And it's always nice to have a veteran (with some ego) that can add some insight and advice for our younger players.

But I don't want Payton coming in and trying to take over games at the expense of the team. Sure, he's always been a great team player (he has lost a step or two). But that's when HE was the main focus (and Kemp).

For example. What will happen if JVG wants to keep Payton on the bench w/limited minutes? Will he pout? Or will he be fine w/it?

Questions, questions...

 

Dear god, I really hope the Rockets aren't stupid enough to pick up Payton...

 

I think Mutombo has to be traded alone, but they can take more than one player back. I'm not sure. Do you have any sources confirming that he can only be traded for one player?

So we only have one TE and it's 5.58M? It lasts through to the next draft? That's news to me.

Still possible, althoguh it will have to wait till mid september:

TE for Payton and 1.6M cash (now).
Pike, Lue and 1.6M cash for Mutombo(September).

Chicago use cash to cut Lue.

However, if there are bettr plans for our TE, maybe we should just wait.

 

Now that I think about it, why would we bail Boston out?

I'd want something good from them if we take Payton. An unprotected first rounder, maybe Kendrick Perkins? Maybe they take Weatherspoon in exchange for Michael Stewart? Save us some money, get us a C.

 

Well, we did sign Ward to a 3 year contract. And then there was the Moochie...and Maloney...and...

But GP is only 1 year and is worth that to see if it works. If nothing else, the team will be more interesting (entertaining) to watch with GP than without.

 

What do you mean bail Boston out? Ainge is not so desperate to unload Payton that they'd give up talent or draft picks. It's not like he was a contributor to their team last year, and he has an expiring contract anyway.

I don't see how trading a scrub who hasn't averaged more than 2ppg since his rookie year would make us better. He wouldn't get PT, and at least Spoon can still play, regardless of if you like him or not. Sure, Yogi's a good character guy and has an expiring contract, but he wouldn't play more than 4 or 5 minutes per game and Spoon's deal is only for two years anyway.

 

You're thinking of the old NBA. I wish it were the way you think it is, but it's obviously not.

He has an unhappy player on his hands that will kill the lockerroom.

As for Yogi, who cares what he contributes? We owe Spoon 12M while Stewart is owed 4.5M. That's money!!! That's not nothing!! It doesn't get us below the cap, but it would make us more able to take on salary in other trades or make management more willing to use the full MLE, the TE, or the vet exception.

As if Spoon is going to play ANYWAY. Howard and MoT are at PF, while Yao and probably Mutombo are at C. Where will we need help most liley, C or PF? Yao gets tired like crazy, and Mutombo is up there in age. MoT and Howard on the other hand are young and can both go for 35 minutes easily.

The NBA is not what it used to be. At this point, can you seriously imagine Payton being a Boston Celtic? Look at the transactions this summer and last.... Based on the trend and pattern, what do you think will happen? He'll either get cut or traded. In which case, we could simply sign Payton and trade for Mutombo.

 

After reading the reports of China vs. Spain, it looks like we'd better go after both Dampier and Mutombo so we have enough big men to last the whole game. Geepers.

 

heypartner- I would still be inclined to take Payton over Mutumbo, and look to move a guy like Piatkowski for a backup 5 (how bout Othella, my fella if Chicago wants Pike?) and/or options like Scott Williams/Keon Clark supplemented by going to Howard/MoT.

The thing about Mutumbo...unlike Cato, he's so slow, you can't even play him in spurts next to Yao Ming imo. Does a plodder like that, who can play maybe the 15 mpg Yao sits down, assuming we don't go small with Mo/Howard, really help us more than a PG the caliber of Payton? I wanted to do a Spoon (2 years) for Booth (3 years) trade with Seattle, but Dallas got their first with Fortson (3 years, year 2=p-opt), or they just liked Fortson better.

I do agree that frontline defense is our biggest hole right now, but I think that may ultimately be because of a minor flaw in design. We have 3 locks for the PF/C rotation, none of them come with anything resembling Hakeem like defensive abilities. I just don't think the 4th big man can turn around that unit and make as much an impact as Payton being the starting PG. He and TMac may end up being kindred souls- they both feel like they have something to prove this year.

I think Tyronn Lue is not viewed as a legit starter by Rockets management, and by signing Ward and Sura to multi-year deals either as starters or off the bench, and with Lue likely to get a raise from his current 1.6 mill salary, the Rockets really don't have much need for him beyond this year. I go for Payton, who may give us a chance to go deep into the playoffs. Who thought the Pistons could win it all going in to last season? They got a new coach and added Rasheed Wallace midseason. It can be done.

Sane- So you're saying the Celtics would take on 7.5 million more in committment to get rid of Payton? For Tyronn Lue? Get real. And Stewart for Spoon doesn't even work.

 

I thought that was what Yao was for. And Howard. MoTay isn't a bad position defender, either. There's no magic formula that says you need 2 shotblockers on a team. Detroit's title run last season didn't rise or fall with the play of Mehmet Okur. Their starting PG, on the other hand, was vital.

 

1. Yao is a good defender and an intimidating force but he's slow.
2. Howard is an average defender at best who was routinely exposed when playing with Dallas. Taller players shoot right over him in the lane like he doesn't exist. You won't see Howard close the lane down for you. It's why Dallas traded him to Denver for LaFrentz in the first place.
3. Taylor is, well, just bad (as a defender.)
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When Yao goes out of the game, it will look like a layup drill unless we bring in another shotblocker/help side defender.

As for Detroit, they had two shot blocking players at the 4 and 5 positions (the two Wallaces) so they were able to maintain a defensive presence when Okur was in the game. Okur is also more of a post presence than either Howard or Taylor. All three are poor defenders, but at least Okur has a bit more height to defend the post. What's more, as a Western Conference team, we face a huge challenge at the PF position nearly every night. Going into the season with such a huge defensive liability is not acceptable IMHO.

I like the Howard aquisition (he's a solid offensive player and a better rebounder than Taylor), but it necessitates additional defensive help at either the 4 (replacing Taylor) or at the backup 5.