Patrick Beverley Injury [Update] Partial torn muscle, out 10-14 days

All guards blow by each other, you cant go backwards or sideways, as fast as someone going forward.

 

Beverley heard himself I think a couple of minutes the second time he checked in. He was struggling against Walker, who made 3 field goals (2 was PnR) during that stretch. But I think it is due to a lack of coordination between him and the help. He will be fine once he learns how to work with our bigs better.

Brooks's defense was really not on par with Beverley last game, mainly due to his size. Hope Beverley is careful with himself. We need him to stay healthy.

 

corrected.

 

So when Lin was injured in the playoffs last season and OKC attacked him, did you make up all these kind of excuses too or did you say how sorry Lin was or how bad he played?

Sheesh, I like both players but the hypocrisy on the board is nauseating. Call it both ways people.

Sure sounds like some BOF's have invaded Clutchfans now.

 

Just as much as Lin got overly analyzed last year, Bev will probably get it 10x worse from LOF's. And Im semi-LOF. Fact.

 

Would REP if i could like a pre-2013'r . Whatever that means~

 

Lin spent more time with the first team than he did with the second team last night. Frankly, he played well with both. Yes, Beverly's defense is higher energy but saying Lin's not a good defender is false. But Lin is such a better playmaker than Bev, it's not even close. He gets everyone on the team involved. Bev is more of a dribble the ball up the court, pass it to Harden and let Harden iso.

Frankly, my only reason for wanting Lin to start is because I want Lin to get all the guys into a good rhythm at the beginning of the game and hopefully build up a lil lead. Then he can sit and let Bev come in and maintain. They Lin can come back in with some second team guys and DH and give us a flash of Linsanity. To me, that makes the most sense and allows us to still utilize everyone's strengths.

 

I don't think Bev will get overly analyzed- and he shouldn't. We got him for next to nothing and he's done nothing but exceed all expectations. Lin was brought in under the allure of Linsanity and promoted as such until we picked up Harden. With his larger (but not unreasonable) contract, I think it's fair to analyze him more. But with that move, Lin also had to readjust his game and play knowing Harden was going to be the man,

What is dumb though, is to say- just because Bev has done well for what we are paying him, then the Rockets are better off with him as our main point. Greg Smith exceeded expectations for what we are paying him too last season, but if Dwight wasn't quite as good as we expected, nobody in their right mind would start clamoring that we should have Smith start of DH.

 

Instead of talking out of you'r rear end, show me one post where I blamed lin for the playoffs. One post I dare you because you cant. Infact I praisded his heart for trying to fight through the chest injury to play. Where do these idiots crawl out of?

 

I agree, and I have no problem with the different expectations, particularly when it comes to analyzing contributions of each player given their respective salaries. Like, say, when analyzing payroll or trade prospects. But no one is doing that, and in the vast majority of cases (i.e., as fans), nobody actually cares because it doesn't come out of our pockets. The only time the money argument is used is to prove that Lin is "overpaid" and that Beverley is "underpaid". It's a specious argument that adds nothing to the basketball discussion.

The real issue with the differing expectations due to salary is that now Beverley and Lin are both supposedly going to be playing similar minutes. As much as we would prefer it not be that way, it's pretty clear that there will be times where one is on the floor in favor of the other. In that context, it's very important to hold Beverley to the exact same standards as Lin, and vice versa. It's a disservice to both players, and to the team, to do otherwise.

Honestly I think it's pretty hard to make the case that Beverley is such a superior defender to Lin that he warrants taking some ~5-10 MPG of Lin's playing time. Literally, that's the only argument I've seen of any validity. Beverley is a better fit because he's a far superior defender (and maybe he's a slightly better catch-and-shoot guy and/or 3-point shooter). Maybe the front office has some data that validates that analysis, but from what I can tell it's really hard to make that kind of argument based on the sample sizes involved, the team nature of defense, and the fact that Dwight Howard is perhaps the most elite defender to ever set foot on the court (i.e., you have very little idea how it's going to work on the court in terms of how he's going to impact the team's defensive schemes and what you'll actually need from your PG on a given night). It eventually boils down to the fact that there are no good publicly-available statistics on defense.

Note that I'm not saying that Lin should be a starter or that he shouldn't sit on the bench ever or that he shouldn't try to be the 6th man. I'm saying that there are about ~5-10 minutes in every game where Beverley will be on the floor when Lin could be playing instead, and in those minutes I find it difficult to understand why you would want the former instead of the latter just because one of them far outperforms his contract or "doesn't need the ball" to perform at his best.

If that's the case, then you need to analyze Lin and Beverley against each other when they do not have the ball - on both offense and defense. I would be willing to bet good money that either Lin comes out ahead or that they come out as pretty close to even in those cases, both in a vacuum and when you measure the performances of their court-mates. Then, when you take back into the analysis the idea that one of them could potentially have to handle the ball at times, Lin is clearly the superior player in that regard.

Those things are what really bothers me about the whole Lin/Beverley discussions. When you cut through all the noise, it boils down to those ~5-10 minutes, and no one really seems to have a good justification for it beyond "the eye test" and "fit". In my world, I have a very hard time not being skeptical of those kinds of reasons. This is the same world that told Lin that he wasn't an NBA player to begin with. This is the same world that told Beverley that he was only good for Euroball. Even with the players on this team and the stories that have been told, I find it incredibly disheartening at times to see people so willing to cling to the illusion that professional basketball is somehow a pure meritocracy, and that somehow if you're "good enough" you will rise above everything and make it, and that only the best, most deserving players get minutes on the floor. That's blatantly untrue, and the sooner we let go of that illusion the easier it will be to discuss things as they are instead of how we pretend the to be.

 

Brooks defense is on par with a tree stump. He has no defense.

 

good thing he's feeling ok. mavs will be better this year w/ a healthy dirk and a better 2nd option. their calderon/harris pg combo is a good matchup for bev to defend

 

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Nubmonger again.

 

I was much more concerned about Parsons trying to dribble the ball on the break instead of handing it to Lin and then running the lanes. He did it at least twice, and in neither case did things end well. Missing shots is fine and happens to everyone. On the other hand, taking bad shots, making bad decisions, those are not acceptable to any team wishing to contend.

 

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=8338964&postcount=173

^TL;DR summary:

Spoiler

probally becaz skin color!

 

I think it would serve Lin, this forum, and his fans well... if the ones who don't like Beverley just stay out of all his threads. And vice versa. If your intent is to take a big dump in every ______ thread you enter, then don't click it.

 

Statistics for defense are more about what you should be doing, not necessarily what results that brings, that's why they're so few and far between. The complaints about defense can border on the ridiculous (my favorite was probably when Parsons was blamed for Monta's one foot sideways jump shot from 28 feet that went in), only made worse by this predetermined victim mentality.

To give an example of the issues here, no greater example than what we face tomorrow, as it was the pre seasons best example of a common theme.

Jose Calderon, here's the general scouting report of this guy. One of the league's best jump shooters, off the dribble for long 2's and off the catch for 3's. Would struggle to get to the hole in a rec league.

So Lin goes under the screen 3 times in a row resulting in Calderon getting an open jumper from space, Mchale pulled Lin pretty early for this, it needed to happen.

If you go over the screen and he hits the shot, that's one thing, players hit shots, but that's how a high screen should always be guarded for Calderon. That's why there are no public stats for defense worth a damn, stats like "number of times player goes wrong side of screen" isn't in the public domain, but we can see it when it happens, especially repeatedly. To make it worse, when he goes over the screen, he has this horrible habit of running up under the shooter semi frequently.

the other of Lin's defensive weaknesses is best exploited by Tony Parker, and players similar to him. Parker will lean into him on the drive, draw a bump, foul!

 

I wasn't calling you out specifically... hence, why I asked if you did or not. I have no way of knowing how you felt b/c the site only lets you look back 300 posts and since you're rather prolific on here, the oldest post I could see was well after the playoffs.

However, there are plenty of "fans" on here who did call out Lin for being soft or weak or a baby or 50 million other names when he was injured and none of them are running to the board posting similar comments about Lin.

Instead, I see a lot of people who are trying to say that Bev was hurt and that's why Kemba was running circles around him. That's not even true because when Bev got benched in the first quarter, he wasn't even hurt yet.

And I see people saying that Bev isn't to blame for all of Kemba's buckets because he got picked off. Yet when they set picks against Lin, all the LOH's (AND I AM NOT SAYING YOU) came out of the woodwork to say how bad Lin's D is and how he can't fight through picks).

That's why I said this place is filled with hypocrites. There is clearly a double standard.

 

I find it hilarious that you post my exact quote which says I'm not disputing the 6th man or "stagger with Harden" analysis. Even if you take that into consideration, basic mathematics says that there are 48 minutes in the game, and Harden will be playing at least 35 of those minutes. So that leaves 13 minutes where Lin will supposedly be on the floor and handle the ball - fine.

This also means that if you limit Lin to, say, 25 MPG (5 fewer than last season), then he will still have to play with Harden for 12 minutes out of the game.

My question is, what happened to those other 5-10 minutes? In those 5-10 minutes, those will be the times where supposedly Beverley will be on the floor and Lin will not. Harden is not part of this calculation because Beverley is never replacing Harden on the floor - he is always replacing Lin. Harden and Lin already "have" to play with each other for at least half of the time Lin will be on the floor. That's the crux of my issue. Lin can play the 6th man, fine. Lin can be the primary facilitator, fine. If you looked at any of my other posts instead of assuming I'm a race-baiting LOF, you'd realize that I've actually proposed that exact idea and discussed player rotations around those concepts.

Even more fundamentally, this boils down to the calculation that if Lin's only job on the team now is to handle the ball when Harden is out (basically he turns into Harden's backup), then he should only, at maximum, only play 13 MPG, because Harden will average at least 35 MPG. Beverley is the "best fit" with Harden, and Harden is going to play 35 MPG, so Beverley should be playing those 35 MPG alongside him. Lin can't back up two players at once if they play in tandem. I feel like pointing this out because it's something a lot of people seem very keen on ignoring, and it's basic math minutes we're talking about here.

If people have actually stepped up and said that Lin is now going to get 13 MPG, then fine. But I haven't seen anyone say that, so I'm pointing it out.

 

Thanks.