Pat Robertson's Comments on Islam

Pat Robertson does not stand for what all Christians believe, or even a majority. Trying to sling mud at faith based initiatives is in very bad taste. I know of many instances where faith based initiatives have helped people's lives immensely. Did it ever occur to you that people get recommendations to go to faith based initiatives because they are usually more effective than secular help?

 

Goophers, you fail to respond to my assertion that Bush is essentially kicking back to what he calls "faith based initiatives" as payback for their contributions to his campaign.

These kickbacks increases the clout of these organizations to hire staff and to coordinate volunteer efforts to help out with his next election. Aside from Republican Party building the other motivation, which is always at or near the top, is to cut the taxes of his large contributors, with some trickle down to the upper middle class, where I see a small bit of the trickle down myself.

Unfortunately urging volunteerism is one of the key strategies in pretending that large cuts in social services due to these tax rebates won't hurt anyone, thus maintaining the compassionate image of conservatives.

I know that you probabaly think Bush does this because he is such a "good Christian man" and political concerns are the l
farthest thing from his godly thoughts. Sorry I don't buy it.

You claim these church efforts work better than other social services. Any evidence? or does this just have to be taken on faith?

I have no problem with churchs and individuals doing charitable activities. I need to start doing more charity work myself. Just don't try to make my tax dollars off of it. Also don't use the relatively small amount of help involved in such charitable activities as an excuse to decrease the massive help to the needy given by such programs as Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, School Lunch Program, the WIC Program for pregnant and new mothers etc.

The sum total of the government help to the needy dwarfs the charitable activity. Knowlegable church people understand this. Ask a larger food pantry organization if they can pick up the slack for large cuts in the food stamp program, if you don't believe me.

Did you know that some christian denominations are against Bush's faith based iniative plan because they view it as a political football that may lead to a a backlash against them. Also they may have to follow government regulations concernig gays, abortions etc. that they don't believe in if they take the money. Other denominations are against it for the reasons I listed above; it is essentially attack on health and social services, which they support because they are Christians.

In sum I'm all for volunteerism. Let's all do as much as possible. Let's have vounteerism plus the same level of government aid to the needy.

If we do have this unprecedented in American history volunteerism that would some how make government aid less necessary, then and only then, cut back on government spending on health and social services very slowly and cautiously because the history of volunteerism is that volunteers often tend to burn out after awhile due to demands of family, work etc.

The safety net is all that stands between many of these recipients and increase mental illness, spousal abuse, and in some cases death or suicide.

 

Glynch,

- I am very aware of the opposition in some groups to the Bush policies. Some people support them, though. Two sides to every coin.

- I didn't respond to your assertion about kickbacks because how is anyone to prove or disprove that? Guessing Bush's true motivations is an exercise in futility.

- My statement that faith based initiatives could be recommended more was a question to you. You did not respond to that. If you have considered it, what evidence do YOU have that it isn't true? I asked that question because I've seen some wonderful work by faith based groups.

- I've volunteered at a food bank (often) and Habitat for Humanity (a couple of times). My grandparents are very involved in a food bank in a large city (though not Houston's size). They support Bush's plans. I oppose several of Bush's plans, but this I agree with.

- No one is forced to accept federal funding.

- Acting like I am stupid and blindly follow Bush because he's Christian was rude and very close-minded of you.

 

Well I am a Muslim from a third world country. I could care less about trying to convince anyone into accepting Islam. I could care less if a person is Jewish, Hindu, Christian, etc. So that automatically proves his stupid ass theory wrong.


On the other hand, I dont even know how many so called "devout Christian" try to convince me into accepting their faith.

There are a few idiots in Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. I belive missionaries of all faith just need to mind their own freakin business.

 

goophers said: Acting like I am stupid and blindly follow Bush because he's Christian was rude and very close-minded of you.

True. Sorry

You're also right not all Christians are followers of Pat Robertson. As a person who was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools through college I deeply resent this crap that all Christians are conservative republicans. Maybe you do to.

The initial post I was responding to said: paraphrasing, Did it ever occur to you that they are referred to faith based initiatives because they are usually more effective?

This to me is an unproved assertion that it is usually more effective, a rhetorical question that did not ask for an answer. I asked you to prove it. The certainty and tone of your unproved assertion was partly responsible for my mistake and the tone of my reply.

Your acting upset because I don't assume you know various points for and against faith based initiatives that you haven't articulated is understandable but not that rational.

Who knows? perhaps our positions are fairly close. Do you support holding present levels of government social spending while we experiment with volunteerism? Bush wants to decrease this funding and is holding up volunteerism and imho unfortunately faith based initiatives as a justification to decrease funding.

I do think that government funding of church people to do social serives where they sometimes try to proselytize is a violation of the type of separation of church and state I want.

I'm all for volunteerism whether by people of faith or whomever as a supplement to the gov programs. Who could possibly against it? I am for a radical increase in the peace corp and Volunteer for America programs which subsidize people to do similar project, but not at churchs.

 

Glynch,
The certainty in tone when I phrased my question was my mistake due to my haste in typing a reply. While I do not claim to be an expert in this subject, I have read articles for and against (I am not ignorant of what is going on).

To answer your question, no, I am not for cutting current social service funds (except, of course, in cutting any excessive administration costs). I only want an increase in options for such services. That way, a person who doesn't want to deal with religious preaching can avoid it. But, I think that a religious organization can offer help that secular organizations can't. In short, I don't want religious organizations taking over from the gov't, but I want them to expand the help for people. If a Muslim organization is helping feed the poor, I don't want them to be excluded from gov't assistance just because they are religious.

By the way, I am not offended because you don't assume I know points for and against the initiatives. I am offended because you assume I don't know anything about those initiatives, and the reason for that assumption seems to be because I am religious. That's like assuming someone doesn't know about politics because they're black or assuming someone doesn't know about love because they are gay. Those types of assumptions just make me cringe.

 

goophers: My mom is a grief counselor for the Red Cross and worked in HISD as the head of secondary counseling for 15 years. I asked her about the faith-based initiatives once when it came to counseling and she said that it concerned her because very often the counselors in those situations push God as an alternative to traditional therapy.

This may work for some, but not everybody. She is a Christian herself but she said that one source of funding is for suicide counseling. She was concerned with this, in particular, because many ministers don't have the training and experience to handle it in a sectarian way.

Additionally, she said that many people would rather not go to a counseling at all if it meant having to go to church because they feel pressured to join even if the minister doesn't necessarily push it.

As for the faith based initiatives amounting to kick backs, I doubt I would go that far. It is just a conservative method of involving something they know in the governmental system. I don't care for it but I don't think it is some sort of political payoff. It is too broad to draw any specific correlation.

 

One other thing that is a fairly serious concern with faith based initiatives. With sectarian counseling (in particular), there are state requirements in nearly every state for certification. My mom had to go through quite a lengthy training process to be certified with the Red Cross and that's a volunteer program.

But, the state doesn't have the same requirements for churches. In fact, most go un-regulated as part of the separation of church and state. As a result, there is no way of knowing exactly what level of quality of treatment those in need will receive. Plus, there are very few, if any, checks on faith based groups.

That should be a concern to everyone.