MALDEF http://www.americanpatrol.org/MALDEF/FORDFOUNDHYMOWITZMALDEF.html LULAC http://www.fairus.org/html/09132808.htm http://www.ccir.net/alerts/ANHAttack-PDUseless011209.html http://www.caller2.com/autoconv/newslocal99/newslocal441.html http://www.limitstogrowth.org/ http://www.lubbockonline.com/news/110196/ex.htm Or just read anything by Jose Angel Guetierrez.
It is rather ironic that we've been discussing the possible demise of our own culture due to the forced overwriting of it by another - using treeman's LULAC example. The idea here being that our culture is being destroyed by another forcibly or little by little depending on the situation. If it ironic because it is exactly what our forefathers did when they came to America in the first place. To say that we forcibly extracted Native American culture would be the understatement of the century. In addition, they forcibly added the culture of African's through slavery. Now, people often complain about black history month or celebrating African American holidays. Sometimes you reap what you sow. To take it a step further, the very idea that democracy and capitalism has spared the world from the dark ages is a tad arrogant, IMO. The spreading of corporate empires like wildfires across the globe is sparking protests and some very pissed off attitudes towards America. What does everyone think the World Trade Organization riots are about? Not everyone in the world wants American corporate culture (as if a corporation has enough of a soul to have a culture) rammed down their throats. Some actually want to keep their OWN culture and not have to stare down the barrel of a Starbucks or McDonald's on every corner. The very fact that English is the language of business should be cause for concern to every nation that doesn't have English as its first language because they have a much greater chance of having their language erased than we do ours. So, I'm sorry if I'm not all that worried about Latin America (or anyone else) deconstructing the culture of America through bi-lingual education or some other covert means. It is far more likely that we will destroy ourselves before anyone else has the opportunity.
Weren't the various native American groups busy demolishing each other's culture when we stepped in? The good guys won. There is a difference in what's going on today; these individuals are coming here at our invitation or as our uninvited guests. We are a United States from sea to shining sea not competing tribes looking to bash in heads or enslave one another. These people enjoy or protections. They enjoy our civilization. They owe us a debt of gratitude to learn our language and to honor our culture. I'm happy to learn of other cultures (Oktoberfest & Cinco de Mayo) but only as adjunct to American culture not as rival. Multiculturalism is about the stupidest thing I've seen in my lifetime. You don't water down your beer do you?!!
Watering down beer is one of the few acts I actually consider sinful. I guess that's the moral relativist in me talking...
Rich: That may be one of the most bizarre statements I've ever read on this BBS. The "good guys" slaughtered thousands Native American and their tribes because we wanted their land and they were in our way. WE were the immigrants. Nevermind that. For a moment, is there anyone here who can define exactly what American culture is? We seem to be able to argue about it but no one has made an attempt to define what it is we are arguing about. Anybody have any ideas?
You can't be serious? First, if you interpret the conflict between the Native Americans as signs of their cultural inferiority, then you might as well damn every civilization in Europe, Africa, Asia, and, oh yeah, America too (we had the Mexican War and that nasty Civil War, you know). Of course, it wasn't like every tribe in the Americas was pitted against one another in a quest for continental domination. There was some conflict (some of it gruesome), but it was hardly a case of "demolishing" one another. I don't think the original European settlers were invited here. But they sure were bent on enslaving anyone they could (including other Europeans - you have heard of indentured servitude?). Nor does the fact that the Native Americans were not one nation make the European conquest any more justified. Obviously, I'm benefitting from the results, but that doesn't mean I should celebrate the brutal and (at times) systematic destruction of many groups of people. I don't think most of the illegal immigrants owe us a damn thing. We're all too happy to hire them to mow our lawns or move our heavy boxes (work high-falutin' folks like us are too good for). As every person with any economic knowledge has stated, these immigrants drive our economy. Moreover, we criticize them for wanting to make money, yet isn't that the whole basis of our capitalist system. You can't expect the rest of the world to embrace our corporate immigrants efforts to make money (while refusing to adapt to the culture of the country they're invading), yet turn around and curse those immigrants trying to make money for their family (sorry, you just don't see many single entrepreneur illegal immigrants). Saying you're okay with other cultures as long as they're expressed only on the right holiday is like saying blacks should only come out on MLK day. Just because people hold onto their customs doesn't make them a rival. Humans are rivals only because we have the impression (whether its true or not, I'm not sure) that there is a limited amount of resources to be had in this world. If a person is of a different culture, that doesn't and shouldn't mean they're going to take away what's rightfully yours. And I agree, water in the beer sucks. But what makes you think that all the immigrants have to offer is water? Or that American culture is even analagous to beer? Maybe culture is more like trail mix. Culture has never been a fixed and non-changing thing. American culture today is different than it was 30 years ago. We've absorbed so much from other cultures that we are, if anything, the true mutt of cultures. I imagine that a few more influences won't change us for the worse.
Jeff: Define any culture in 30 seconds. I dare you. American Culture takes a lifetime to understand. That's why we have historians. It does exist. subtomic: You give us a perfect example of 'multiculturalism' at its finest. White Man Down, we should call it... Shoot down Anglo-Saxon culture for perpetrating slavery (and ignoring the fact that all slave states are Islamic now - Sudan in particular) over four generations ago, while ignoring current trends. Fine. I have ancestors who fought in NY on the Union side in the Civil War. They were Irish/Scottish/German - white. Does that mean I should pay reparations for slavery? Does the fact that I don't want to pay reparations make me a racist? C'mon, let it all out... I'll fight to defend diversity with my life. I'll puke if I'm ordered to defend PC thuggin'. Beer should never be watered down.
I know it does. I'd just like for some of us here to take a crack at it and see how we define it. I'm interested to see what people think because I doubt we all agree. Beer tastes like piss.
treeman, You show a remarkable ability to react to what you think I'm saying and not what I'm actually saying. Reparations? Where did that come from? And I don't criticize our culture (I am white) while praising others. You perceive any acknowledgement of Anglo-Saxon brutality as an entire damnation of the culture. But that's not what I'm saying at all. My point is that our so-called superiority over other cultures does not hold up to scrutiny. All cultures are guilty of inhumane acts, America included. I don't have to defend these other cultures because quite frankly, I don't hear that many Mexicans or Sudanese talking about how their culture is the best in the world. But I hear white Americans saying it all the time. Maybe you don't mean it that way, but it comes off arrogant, obnoxious, and implies that we can do no wrong and other cultures can do not right. If you believe American culture (which again, is a mish-mash of other different cultures) is the way to go, beating people over the head with their so-called "inferiority" is not going to successfully convince them that you're right. America has done alot right. But that doesn't mean we do everything right and that any outside influence will lead to our ruin. Isolationism in any context is doomed to failure. Finally, can you prove to me that the so-called immigrant invaders are bringing values that are inherently incompatible with American culture?
Yes it does. But after a while you start to equate its taste to water, and the "piss" comparison doesn't seem to bad to your temporal palate... But you're right, most beer does taste like piss. It's called Miller Light. Saratoga. Benedict Arnold. George Washington. Bunker Hill. French and Indian War. The Protestant Revolution. The Renaissance. The Civil War. The Emancipation Proclamation. WWII and the defeat of Nazi Germany. The Civil Rights Acts. The Declaration of Independance. The Bill of Rights... All of these except for a couple ( I left out English Common Law, as that's too complicated for some here) are distinctly American accomplishments. Some things that everyone should know about. They are just a few highpoints of American Culture, Jeff.
I can't speak for Rich, but I did interpret his statement differently than you did. Before the 20th century began, man treated his fellow man with remarkable savagery. Cultures were expanding and killing their enemies with consistant disregard for human life. Slavery existed in every culture's past. Our American forefathers were normal human beings for their time. What made us different (along with the British and other Westerners), is that we evolved past this barbaric stage. We are the ones who help to end world wide slavery. We are the ones who fought for freedom and democracy around the world. We are the most giving and benificent people who have ever graced this planet. We can't judge our forefathers using the acceptable moral standards of today. We must compare them to the other cultures of their time to determine their greatness. We can also judge a people by the world they create for their children. Using this criteria, I have to agree with Rich. The Good Guys won. That is such a tough question, because American culture is a huge tent that contains an endless number of subcultures that are constantly changing and evolving. I think it is much easier to define American culture by what binds us together as a people. * I just started a long list of ideas that I thought binds us together as a people, but I realized my entire list was covered by our constitution. We are a nation conceived from the minds of intellectual giants. Our constitution, and all of the court decisions that added to our understanding of our rule of law, is what holds us together. Also, it is our ability to change cultural direction, albeit slowly, that affords our people to survive challenges from within. I am very interested to read what others view as "American Culture". I look forward to more responses to Jeff's question.
subtomic: No, I just know where this conversation is leading. It goes here: I never said that isolationism was the way to go (thank you for putting words in my mouth). I'm simply trying to point out that there are groups within the immigration apparatus who have ulterior motives. If you choose to believe that LULAC, MALDEF, La Raza, MACHA, and other groups are totally benign and support American culture, then that is your choice. I just want the truth. And the truth turns out to be thousands of assholes waving the red and green over LA post-9/11. Undeniable. Wrong f*cking flag. These people want to reclaim the SW US. Wrong F*ing flag.
I dont know if you should give the defeat of nazi Germany as an example, a lot of cultures and countries took part in the defeat . Plus, you and the guy we defeated in that war have a few similar opinions (his more perverted though) , he liked to keep other cultures out of his country too.
Wow! Thats alright, you can call me whatever you want. I never called you Hitler, I said your ideologies are similar, his being more perverse. But go ahead and put words in MY mouth. Just dont say everyone's opinions are welcome if your going to call me childish names for expressing mine.
Speaking of beer, what about the St. Patrick's Day parade? that doesn't have anything to do with America yet monoculturalists like yourself and Patty Buchanan never complain about that being celebrated here.
American culture perpetually changes. The first people to even attempt to define 'American culture' were: 1. Mark Twain 2. Artists at The Hudson River School of Art whose works represent part of the process of national self-conceptualization during a time of momentous social, political, and economic change and 3. Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America . He was the first to raise topics of American practicality over theory and the conflict between the masses and individuals. What they percieved to be the 'American culture' isn't representative of what it is today, though Twain did speak of certain societal values that have/will permeate through the ages, which I think are more important to protect than some vague, subjective interpretation of what American culture is. PS: The Declaration of Independence is a complete rip-off of Locke's ideas. The Emancipation Proclamation was more strategic than idealistic by the way. Lincoln, who I'd hardly call Mr. abolitionist, issued it to make sure the Confederacy didn't gain foreign recognition. The British public were the driving force behind Parliament banning slavery throughout its empire; the Union knew this, played to their emotions by issuing the proclamation and the rest is history; the British remained neutral.
"Until quite recently, there was no question but that each group desired admittance to the mainstream. No more. Now ethnic leaders demand that their groups remain separate, that their native culture and language be preserved intact, and that whatever accommodation takes place be on the part of the receiving society." Linda Chavez
dc rock: Dork. You called me a fascist without saying it. At least have the balls to say it. outlaw: Pat Buchanan is a religious madman. No one here is really totally supporting his views. But he is not wrong on everything... And if you homos can have your parade, then you surely can't complain about a poor-beer-selection-drinkers' (Irish) parade... (I support homo parades as well as poor-beer-drinker parades)
