Hey what you believe is fine by me, but that doesn't mean I am going to shy away from expressing my opinion about it. And I don't want Palin with beliefs I consider to be intolerable and narrow minded in the Whitehouse...... DD
So wait you don't believe in atheists yet by your logic you're acknowledging atheists exist. Logic kicks ass.
This comment addresses her pastor's political views, all I've been responding to is your original assertion that people who speak in tongues are "wack jobs." And in my opinion, "God" doesn't "speak" because it doesn't exist. But I can still find merit in the belief thereof, and in other activities and ideas: such as speaking in tongues or believing in the rapture, that I don't ascribe to or participate in. There's no more valuable but equally ambiguous and elusive gift to a person's psyche than emotional and spiritual clarity; seeking it out through speaking tongues or any other non-destructive means is probably the sanest and healthiest thing a person can do. It's an emotional and spiritual release.
Maybe Palin and her Pentecostal friends can pray away the gays Intolerance should not be tolerated in our public servents. I guess each person has their own spiritual release, mine involves the sports page and a morning ride on a throne of Porcelain. DD
i personally don't believe in most of the crap spewed in this thread. but i do believe in what this thread represents. Iroc can believe in what ever crazy crap he wants to, and DaDa can talk crap about Iroc's/Palin's beliefs all day any day if he feels like. look at it this way... if DaDa didn't have crazies like Iroc/Palin/Snakies believing in what they believe, then DaDa wouldn't feel sane about his beliefs. He needs something abmormal(his opinion) to normalize his beliefs. Iroc needs those crazy atheists or agnostics to prove how uncrazy and obvious what he believes in is. Just like Iroc and DaDa, Jesus/God need Satan. They just don't work alone. Jesus life of no sin is not really impressive if there is no Satan trying to making him sin. God's love and truth is pretty generic without Satan's hate and lies. Neither party(God and Satan / Iroc and DaDa) will ever admit it but they need each other in the worst way.
DD, Jesus explicitly said that those who believe in him would speak in tongues in Mark 16:17. I see how non-believers would think that such things are crazy because they are not "natural" -- essentially spiritual phenomena, but if you have respect for the man Jesus himself then you shouldn't scorn his followers for simply following his teachings. I'm no supporter of Palin (you probably know my stance against her already) but it bothers me that people would want to use her Christian faith as a basis to attack her.
No one is bothered by a Christian faith, it is what she thinks of that faith and how it effects her politics that people need to know. Her stance on abortion regarding rape and incest is a very extreme view and not inline with the majority of this country. Someone needs to ask her hard questions about her beliefs and how they effect her policies so the American public can make an informed decision. As for Jesus, JeopardE.....I like his teachings, always have.....but I think they are open to individual interpetation...you know...free will. DD
weslinder, could you expand on "God's influence in things?" I am very comfortable with "seeing God in all things," for instance, but seeing an active (one could say micromanaging) influence in all things is more difficult. I'm very comfortable and sympathetic to "God works in mysterious ways," but for some reason, I have trouble understanding the "thank you for helping me make a touchdown, God," or "thank you for the long gas pipeline being built, God." Not that you need to care, but I want to sympathize with, learn about, and understand the pentacostal faith. I come from being rooted in the "God placed a brain in your head and Jesus wants to watch what you do with it" type of faith. Related to the thread, I just don't want a president (or vice-president) who thinks "well, I don't need to do my homework on this issue. If God wants Iran to develop a nuke, they're pretty much going to do it." Or "If God wanted us to help the homeless, why did he make them smell so bad?" (Sorry, that last one is just a joke!)
When we talk about "tongues"...do we not mean known languages?? I mean do we not mean people who spoke Aramaic all of a sudden being able to communicate the Gospel in Greek or any other language?? I see that in Acts 2, specifically. They were met with the Holy Spirit and all of a sudden were able to communicate to people surrounding them who spoke entirely different languages. The Greek word in the Bible we translate as "tongue" means a recognized language...I think that's important to remember. Paul condemns idle babble saying if it's nonsensical it's of use to no one. I Corinthians 14:6-11 "Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or Prophecy or word of instruction? Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me." Speaking in tongues which were not to be understood by men (as if speaking some unknown divine language) was actually a pagan ritual pre-dating Christianity...and I have yet to find any use of it in the Jewish context that Jesus would have understood. Now I'm certain DaDa isn't going to believe in the miracle of Acts 2...or at least I don't expect he will. But I think it's very different from the speaking of tongues which I see in churches around the world which some claim to be the language of the angels.
No, sorry, it sounds like after the fact embellishment to me. Which is what I believe to be simply mass hysteria...or the group effect. Sorry, not buying. DD
And all that's fine and well. Le me tell you FROM MY PERSPECTIVE there is a HUGE difference to me between the 2.
The signs that occurred in Acts 2 are generally not considered in charismatic circles to be the fulfillment of what Jesus said in Mark 16. In Acts 2 we see that they were speaking in their own language, but by a supernatural act of God those who were listening heard their own native languages -- one person heard Greek, the other heard Aramaic, etc. That is a little out of context. If you back up a few verses, you'll see in verse 2 where Paul says: "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit." What Paul was saying here was that when speaking in public (as in a church gathering), people should use the gift of prophecy and speak words that people can understand and be inspired by, rather than speak in tongues that others cannot understand -- in other words, speaking in tongues should be a personal thing. Paul also says elsewhere in I Corinthians that the natural man cannot perceive spiritual things, they don't make sense to him. Basically the premise is that we cannot attempt to explain spiritual phenomena with natural laws. But this all is divergent from the point I was trying to make ... there's a fine line between "I don't believe in what Christians believe in" and religious intolerance, and I think DD is stepping over that line. People have a right to believe, and if you believe in what the US is founded upon then you shouldn't show prejudice against a person because you don't agree with what they believe in. So what if Sarah Palin speaks in tongues when she prays to God? Why should she be denied her right to do that? I am a firm Obama supporter, but this is exactly the type of far left nonsense that drives conservatives like me away from the Democratic party. There are plenty of legitimate issues to criticize Palin for. This is not one of them.
JeopardE -- I hope I haven't offended you. I'll read deeper into the tongues context. It's something I admittedly have little to no experience in. I'm in agreement with you that I don't want to see Palin criticized for her faith.
It was a matter of time before this topic popped up. Palin is not the only one who respects the pentecostal movement. What will the liberals think of this slander? http://colliedoscope.blogspot.com/2008/05/bill-clinton-sits-again-amongst.html http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/05/bill-clinton-as.html Back at the beginning of May, Clinton's staff requested to visit our church (this is the church I belong to). It was one of those, "no way, you have to be kidding" moments. We were completely shocked as we are not a large church by any means.(125 avg). As noted above, he attended the mega church in the area earlier in the morning, but did not speak. He got up in front of our small crowd and have a few words. He did no campaigning. He has been known to seek advice from pastors in the Pentecostal churches in Lousiana, and attending them during his presidency. There was no political motivation for him to come. Back when he was governor, his secretary was Pentecostal and she got him interested in our church. Does this make him a religious nut now?
