I don't think it's a particularly smart idea to arm Egypt, especially since the question is begged to be asked "Who are they preparing for? The Libyans?" I think not.
I didn't make a moral judgement there, just a point. Why arm if you are supposedly at "peace" with your nearest peer competitor. You don't spend billions of our money on M-1A2 tanks, AH-64 attack helos, and several hundred F-16's (Block 40 Night Attack aircraft with the LANTIRN system) no different than the ones we (and the Israelis) fly. You don't buy that sort of hardware for show.
If the rest of the country considers them 'martyrs' and the surviving family members get paid $$$, then yes, you can draw that conclusion. Or how about if you polled Italians, for instance: 75% support the suicide attack at Maxim Restaurant in Haifa leading to the death of 20 Israelis http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2003/p9epressrelease.html#perception
Originally posted by Sane - Sorry. Dictatorships are not bad. ... I believe that you'd get much disagreement, and not just from Americans. - Arafat is the world's most famous Palestinian. I believe I read in an article that Micheal Jackson is the world's most famous American. Does Micheal jackson represent America? Most Palestinians hate Araft anyway. Damn, everyone hates Arafat. Is Wacko Jacko President of the US? - I think it was made VERY clear that Palestinians basically always existed. I tried to explain this to you, and one of the posters (don't remember who) drove the point home. Factual evidence. Palestinians are the sect of Jordanians that inhabited the holy lands. Whether they are or are not a 'historical' people, the point is moot. They lived/live there. They have rights. That's all that's important. ... Israel is powered by America, and America is the only reason Israel is where it is today. Really? In what respect? 'Where' would it be, pushed in the sea as many Arabs leaders have sought for years? (And FWIW, where would the Arab nations be without their previous support from the Soviet Union? I wonder how large would Israel be?)
bama, I hate to say this, but a lot of it has to do with generating business for our arms industry, in my opinion. How else does it make sense, unless it's to appease the Egyptian military? Keep them 'fat and happy'? Otherwise, we are fueling an arms race where we supply the opposing sides for... what reason? If we were talking about the French, I can bet I might hear something along the lines of, "Those bloodsucking, money hungry Frogs", but we're talking about the United States. We don't do that sort of thing, now do we. I think we do. edit: and the bulk of it is paid for, not by the Egyptians or the Israelis, but by us. Power politics of a sort, no question, and practiced by several administratons of both parties. I have to say that I dislike and disagree with it, but there you go.
Did you miss the post where I made a reference to Sharon's fight against his own party to follow the will of the voters?
It's a legacy from Carter's Camp David Accords. We bought peace by making Israel and Egypt our respective #1 and #2 recipients of foreign aid. It's part of the whole deal he brokered.
I realize that, Deji, but giving billions to Egypt to buy arms from us, when they could desperately use those billions on providing the basic infrastructure needed for their burgeoning population, growing at over 1,000,000 per year (!), is a bit mad, in my opinion. I have a much better understanding of our military support for Israel, although I wish we could, at least sometimes, use that to get Israel to moderate the more extreme of the policies they are pursuing. I saw your post on Sharon. I can't find it in me to be sympathetic to his current political difficulties. Perhaps a shakeup is needed in the Israeli government, and our own, along with the Palestinian Authority (Arafat should be exiled, in my opinion) in order to have any shot at some kind of reduction of violence and a chance of meaningful negotiations for a settlement of some kind. All the problems on the table are not going to be solved during the next several years, but things need a major nudge in a better direction... for all those concerned.
I think a lot of what Deji has to say about Sharon is right on the money. He is fighting off a more hardline wing of his own party. That doesn't make Sharon a good guy, but it does mean there are worse possibilities out there. One of those is former PM, Netanyahu. I feel no pity for Sharon, but at times he has surprised me by calling what Israel is doing an Occupation. It seems basic to us, but something that hasn't really been labeled as such by Israel until now. As empty and insignificant as his dismantling of a few settlements(though they were barely populated at all) it was something that upset many settlers. When you are doing something that upsets the general settlers community, that's probaby a good thing.
A good article on the settlements, which I previously knew litle about, is found here: http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040531fa_fact2_a worth the time if you're interested.
Thanks, Sam. Goldberg is an excellent writer. A great read and incredibly depressing. Fanaticism and hate... a cocktail drunk with relish by extremists on both sides.
Wow. The settlers portrayed in the article are every bit as demented as the Islamic suicidists on a virgin quest or the armageddon-hastening crusading Christians. The justifications they peddle in support of their various abuses are startlingly reminiscent of the segregation-era South: tenuous and disgusting. Just when you think you've reached the nadir of ugliness here comes another, more de la Beckwith than the last.
In addition to the things in this article, it's true that most of the settlers are heavily armed. It's one of the reasons why I have trouble counting settler deaths as civilians when we talk about the death tolls over there. They are living in illegal settlements destroying the land of the original inhabitants, and often armed.
You are assuming that the rest of the country considers them martyrs. No one who's in Palestine will come out and say that it was wrong to commit the suicide bombing - the family of the boy will simply kill you if you do so. The terrorists will find you and kill you. I live in the U.A.E., and there are tons of Palestinians here. Safe to say, the MAJORITY of Palestinians living here don't support the suicide bombings. Thing is, the people who support this don't support the death of civilians. What they are supporting is the suicide bomber going to heaven - which they believe is true thanks to poor education which is a direct result of the conditions over there (poverty, corrupt gov't). These people are a victim of the conditions they live in. You are way more willing to blow yourself up if you believe you'll go to heaven and your family will also get cash. Just like all the prostituion in certain parts of Africa due to poverty. They wouldn't do it if the living conditions were better.
- Sure I'll get disagreement, but that doesn't make me wrong. It doesn't make your opinion better than mine, it just makes it more accepteable in today's society. - Wacko is not the President. But you didn't refer to Araft as the president, you reffered to him as the most famous Palestinian. Being the most famous person in your country doesn't mean you represent everyone in that country. The point here is, he is Palestinian regardless of his origin. The only "original" Americans are Native Americans, so what does it matter that none of your presidents are native Americans? - Everyone has rights, we agree on that. - Where were Israelis living before they invaded Palestine? - You're comparing soviet support from God knows when, to the support from Americans that is still happening today? It's not compareable and you know it.
All over Europe and the Middle East. In Europe they could stay, in the middle east they were forced to move to Israel. DD
We sell arms to Egypt for the same reason we sell arms to Saudi Arabia ..... to ensure that governments we can deal with are not taken over by people we can not deal with. However the threats come more from within more than from outside. It seems as though we learned nothing from the fall of the Shah in Iran. Our tax monies could probably be more effective in subsidizing our agricultural industries than our military industries. But how can we ever expect people who draw their justifications from their own mytholigies to deal pragmatically with reality? The correctness of their own position is insured by their divinity so any compromise is an indictmet of their core beliefs, rendering their identity invalid. The Catch-22 world conflict. Although our Muslim friends probably won't agree, the greatest strenght of the United States is it's polytheism that prevents any one religious view from becoming too dominant. Surley we are a 'Christian' nation but our constitution and judicial branch allow for the protection from religion. Our support for Israel arose not from religious allegiance but from the deep and utter empathy we held for the Jewish people for their suffering at the hands of the axis powers. Before that we discriminated against them as much as anyone. This support of course has been nutured by the Jewish American lobby to a point where we are entwined with Israel as a strategic ally. If the Palestinian cause wants to use martyrdom as a tactic against Israel they are going about it all wrong. Non-violent martyrs and lots of them is the way to go. Make Israel kill thousands of unarmed protestors and the US's support could still be turned. They all still get the 72 virgins, right? Or is all that Muslim BS.
