Nice, And none of that entitles them to the land. Or, maybe, the Cromagnons were there first, and we should get them to take it back, because they were there for thousands of years. Give me a break. Stop blowing civilians up, and maybe they will get somewhere. You don't cut deals with people who do crap like that....until they join the rest of the civilized world. DD
http://www.cactus48.com/1967war.html [/QUOTE] That is a lie, my friend. I'm sorry that you take "Palestinian" propaganda as fact. I agree with DD, blowing up innocent civilians exclusively should not earn you what you want! This just sickens me that people think that "if we just give them what they want, they'll stop." FB, they're not going to stop until they have their bloody banner waving over all of Israel. I'm just sick of reading how many people try to rationalize their struggle when in fact, they are not deserving of any concessions as long as they actively support and harbor murderers in their midst. They deserve every harsh measure from the Israelis, who are not engaging in an "Apartheid" but are trying to save themselves from being blown to bits by lunatics. If you and others want to be on the side of cowards who blow themselves up in pizza parlors and cafes to further the "cause," go right ahead.
First of all I never said that if the Palestinians get what they want the terrorists will stop bombing. What I said was fighting the terrorism and Palestinian statehood were two seperate issues. I don't advocate giving them a Palestinian state and doing nothing and hoping all the problem go away. I've already talked earlier about how I think they should be given a state, and TERRORISTS shoud still be WIPED OUT. Bamma, you keep saying it's ISraelis trying to protect themselves. Some harsh measures are truly that. But, Bamma, please attention here so I don't have to say it for 23rd time. Giving water rights to Palestinians has nothing to do with ISraeli defense. Allowing Palestinians to drill new wells, or existing wells deeper will not weaken Israel. The water allotment for Israelis just for drinking water is equal to that of a Palestinian for irrigation, drinking water, cooking water, bathing and cleaning water. That kind of inequality does nothing to protect Israelis, and is based solely on nationality. Palestinians aren't allowed to operate any business which can compete economically with an ISraeli business. They aren't allowed to succeed. That has zero to do with Israeli defense. It's funny that you accuse me of believing Palestinian propoganda when I listed a quote from Rabin, and it was part of a website kept up by a Jewish organization. Here is more on the 1967 war this time it's info from Moyshe Dayan, who himself had engaged in terrorism in an effort to win statehood for ISrael. Yes there are Palestinians that want Israel wiped out and won't rest until it's done, just as there are ISraelis who want all of the land for themselves. Here's Ben-Gurion himself talking about it. http://www.cactus48.com/1967war.html I'm not talking about something a Palestinian is saying. I'm talking about things that Israel's leaders have said. There are good and bad goals on both sides. We should support fairness, justice, and fight against terrorism, oppression, and injustice. It doesn't matter which side is doing what, because both sides are guilty.
DD, I wasn't saying who was there thousands of years ago entitles anyone to land. I was discounting Bama's incorrect claims about the history of the land and people there. I agree they should stop blowing up civilians, but that's a seperate issue than Palestinian statehood. AT least it should be. I've said before go after the terrorists, AND give the Palestinians a state.
Several reasons. 1. Always do the just thing. Don't wait on someone else. Istead do what is right and place the onus on the other person to follow your example. Lead by example 2. That's what they are supposedly trying to do now and it doesn't work. 3. Giving the Palestinians a Stae makes Israel more secure. That would allow Israeli troops to pull back within the borders of Israel and secure them. Lock them down. Protect them. As is they are extended beyond the broders and spread out here and there. Further more it would make consequences more real to the Palestinians who would actually have something to lose for not stopping the terror. With additional aid given to training, and stopping the terrorism, and a Palestinian govt. with authority and motivation to stopping it, plus the help of anti-terror groups from the U.S. and around the world, and less motivation for impoverished oppressed Palestinians to blow themselves up it's a win-win situation. When there are injustices being committed there is no reason to wait to correct them. If I'm abusing my kids and say it's bcause they are failing school, I shouldn't wait for them pass to school THEN I stop the abuse. The abuse should stop right away, AND they should pass school. Whatever is wrong should not be delayed being made right.
Cohen, I don't believe everything Israel does is abuse, or wrong. I do believe that many of the measures are justified in the name of self defense. I don't believe those should be stopped. Only the abuses. Abuse should be stopped because it's wrong.
Agreed. And suicide bombing civilians which is supported by Palestinian leadership should be stopped also, again, because it's wrong.
Blade, Reasonable thoughts. Personally, I would like new leadership on both sides, and until that happens, I see no real hope for peace. DD
Yeah this is all just stuff I wish would happen, and what some people have proposed. Leadership of both sides aren't really pursuing anything close to that, nor is the U.S. or the U.N. trying to broker anything close to those ideas. In order to make real progress we need to have new bold leadership on boths sides that genuinely desire progress. They have be willing to move forward with new ideas, and do so without reservation. The Palestinians need to do more than just lock up a few guys and see if Israel responds by removing all the settlements and no longer occupying the land. Israel needs to do more than just close down a few minor settlements and then wait to see if all the bombings cease. Both sides have to be willing to try something new, or the same old thing will keep happening.
The thing is I am not sure the Palastinian Government nor the Israeli government actually WANTS peace. Think about it. If that happened, the palastinians would have to live off of their own work and stop getting all the EU handouts, and Yassar would not have bloated pockets as he steals from that fund, and Israel would not have the need for all the US foreign aid to buy arms. I don't really believe either side wants peace, just yet. DD
Arafat may not want piece because it would probably signal the end of his reign. If it didn't come immediately it would soon. The Israeli politics would be a problem for Israelis as would either removing or not protecting and supporting the settlers. Hardline terrorist factions who only want an all or nothing settlement would be upset and may turn some terrorism on their own government. But I think the UN aid would actually increase. It takes a lot of money to help start up a new nation. It may make it harder for Arafat to pocket funds because folks would be keeping a closer eye on the money. The trade off would be economic freedom, true autonomy, and over the long run more peace. By giving up on the settlements certain hard line members of Israel would automatically withdraw support from what ever political coalition was currently in place. The settlers would lose their homes and be very angry, with the government as well. Some probably would refuse to leave and would either end up in prison or killed which would cause more domestic unrest. The trade off would be more peace in the long run, and a more stable region with normalized relations with many Arab countries.
So when a government does its own thing and doesn't listen to its people, what is it called... I was taught in school that this is the definition of a DICTATORSHIP. Actually its quite the opposite of a democracy...
Normalized relations with many Arab countries and Israel? Dream on. Despite signing a peace treaty with Israel, Egypt has continued to pour tons of money into arms when they have no peer competitor except the one lying to their east. There will never be peace in the Middle East as long as it is composed of tinhorn dictatorships.
Actually that was part of old offers in which the Arab nations in the regions have offered up normalized relations. It's old news, and it's been on the table before. As for the Egyptians and Israelis they are partners in peace. To this day not one word of the treaty that Carter helped engineer has been broken by either side. It's amazing what can be accomplished when diplomacy is both encouraged and allowed to take it's course with people committed to diplomacy. Camp David was a truly amazing accomplishment in the regions history.
bama, Egypt is doing that with billions of dollars that we give them as aid, buys much of the stuff from us, and does it with our approval. Facinating, isn't it? You need to wittle down that broad brush. As is the case often enough, Egypt may be a dictatorship, but they are seen as our dictatorship, so to speak. We frequently do that sort of thing if it's seen to be in our interests. Whether it is good policy is another thing altogether.
You finally said something that made sense in this thread. Terrorist suicide bombings are morally and religiously wrong - everyone agrees on that. But for some reason, you guys think that this is supported. Should I assume that Italians think the mob/mafia is morally accepteable just because they have a group of people who do it over there? This war won't be resolved properly. It wasn't meant to be. America doesn't want it resolved, Israel doesn't want it resolved, and Palestine doesn't want it resolved. Who's going to make it happen? The only people who want this resolved are theo nes that are sick and tired of seing their loved ones blown up by tanks or suicide bombers. Contrary to popular opinion on this board, the majority DON'T want to "settle".
- Sorry. Dictatorships are not bad. Corrupted dictatorships are bad. Just like corrupted democracies and republics, or whatever. I don't really care what they're feeding you, but just because more people think a dictatorship is bad, doesn't mean it's bad. If most people in the world preffered the color red, does that make it the best color? SHould everyone make their favorite color red? - Arafat is the world's most famous Palestinian. I believe I read in an article that Micheal Jackson is the world's most famous American. Does Micheal jackson represent America? Most Palestinians hate Araft anyway. Damn, everyone hates Arafat. - The reason Israelis are in this land is because their religion claims its theirs as well. Either no one has a right to this claim, or everyone does. - I think it was made VERY clear that Palestinians basically always existed. I tried to explain this to you, and one of the posters (don't remember who) drove the point home. Factual evidence. Palestinians are the sect of Jordanians that inhabited the holy lands. - If you think Israel took Palestine in a fair fight, and that it's still a fair fight, I won't bother with this point. I don't care about Egypt and Syria. There is no holy land there. Israel is powered by America, and America is the only reason Israel is where it is today.
