Oh lord....I'd call you out. Mature. There is no bull on my side. I'm not condoning the actions of murderers like you are. They did not invade a "Palestinian" country, but instead they invaded Jordan. So how could they invade something that has never existed? Jordan was threatening the Israelis as was the rest of the Arabs and they did what they had to do to ensure their survival. The "Palestinians" sure weren't talking about "Palestine" then. No one ever answers these questions and there is a reason for that. -In an area dominated by Arab dictatorships that control 85% of the land in the ME, why is it that only tiny Israel, so tiny you could spit across some sections, is compelled to give up land? -Why is it that the "Palestinian" people are so recent an invention? -Why do you believe that even after all of the atrocities committed by the cowards who think they are martyrs, these sort of folks would just play nice all of sudden? The answers may surprise you. But if you want to be on the side of bloodthirsty butchers, be my guest. link link
Again, JUST BECAUSE YOU DONT CALL THE GROUP OF PEOPLE A HOMOGENOUS PEOPLE doesn't mean that they aren't a group of people who claimed the land as their own. THey had schools, courts, police, fire trucks, hospitals, and somewhat form of leadership, which pretty much are the essentials to a group of ppl calling their land a country... Why are they attacking people that live there now, surely they aren't psychos who do if for fun, its because they want the land they lived on back... no one told them growing up that they are living on land sacred to the jews, infact not even teh jews asked them to leave, and they all lived in peace... so how do you expect that same group to digest it when another group kicks them out of THEIR country and decides to split them up... of course they are going to fight for it, be it with rocks or be it with bombs...of course if they throw rocks at a 10 million dollar armored tank, its called suicide, so they think, hey why dont we take 10 others down with us, if we are going to essentially commit suicide... they just choose their way of deat, and unfortunately its the horrible way to go, to take 10 other innocents with you... If they could they would go suicide at army bases and other such strategic points, but you and i both know that they would get shot if they got within 100 feet of such places...
When they were doing all that, they were a part of Jordan. Heck, most of the terrorists weren't even born when the borders were different than they are today. They aren't blowing themselves up because they have been kicked off their land, they are blowing themselves up because the leadership and the media blames all of their problems on Israel/America aka the Great Satan (because they certainly are not going to say "Hey, as the rest of the world knows, we are the cause of all of your problems."), and tells them that there should be no Israel and that when they blow up they get a fist class seat on the next plane to virginville. If the "Palestinians" hadn't tried to overthrow King Hussein, then most of them would still be living in Jordan, and the ones living in Israel would have better living conditions and live in peace with the Israelis.
- You say dictatorship as if it's a bad thing. The reason Israel should give up land is because they stole it with unfair aid from the United States. - Just because you hadn't heard of Palestinians doesn't mean they're a recent invention. How old are Americans? More importantly, what the hell is the difference? They claim that the Holy Land belongs to Muslims, and Palestinians are the people who inhabit the area that is apparently Muslim holy land. Palestinians are not Jordanians. Someone LIED to you about this, and you believed it. In fact, Palestinians and Jordanians hate each other, just like Indians and Pakistanis (for the most part). - Palestinain atrocities were done in RETALIATION. Understand this: Israel invaded, and then AFTER that, Palestine started suicide bombings. It is not the other way around. Someone LIED to you, and you believed it. The way you're saying "they invaded Jordan, not Palestine" is absolutely hilarious. Let's say, just for a hypothetical second, that you're right. Why does it make it right for Israel to invade Jordan? What gives them the right to invade ANYONE?
http://www.cedarland.org/black.html They already tried taking over Jordan. About 5000-10000 palestinians were killed in 10 days of fighting. Oh how the hypocrisy smells....
Dictatorships are bad, mmkay. Americans are 228 years old. Who claims that the Holy Land belongs to Muslims? Palestinians were Jordanians until Arafat and his cronies tried to overthrow the government. Look up Black September. In 1967, a coalition of 6 Arab states decided to eliminate Israel. They banded together and amassed their troops near the borders, and they got caught. Israel began preemptive attacks, and the result was a great expansion of Israels, especially into Egypt and Lebanon. Some of the land that Israel captured in this defensive action was later returned in various deals (deals where Israel actually got something out of in, not fantasy one sided deals) over the years. That is why they had the right to invade anyone. When countries start a war with you, you have the option of taking some of their land. That is why the United States has bases in Germany and Japan.
Still, it's NOT their home. Why would they live there? If Palestinians had taken over Jordan, would they be allowed to stay there, would it be ok? You're telling me it's wrong that Palestinians tried to take over Jordan (and failed) but it's ok that Israel did it?
And, they won't have a home as long as they keep sending suicide bombers to kill civilians. Sane, you keep saying Israel got an unfair advantage....SO FRICKEN WHAT !! It happened, life is not fair....does that give them the right to blow themselves up? No way they get support for a state as long as they act like barbarians. DD
- You don't like dictatorships, doesn't mean their bad. I hate fish, I think it's disgusting. Is fish bad? - Palestinians are the descendants of the people who lived in Palestine in ancient history. They are the section of the Jordanian people who are descendants of people from that land who occupied the Holy Land. - Islam and Palestinians claim that the Holy Land belongs to Muslims. You didn't know this and you're arguing about the was in the Middle East? Absolutely brilliant. - As explained, by your standards, Palestinians were always and are still Jordanians. - They have no right to invade any land. Just like America has no right o invade Germany and Japan - they have bases, but that's not invasion. Invasion is what Iraq did to Kuwait. Invasion os what the USSR did to so many countries. It means taking the land, and claiming its your own. In any case, invasion would be fine if the land was won in a fair fight. That's how it's been throughout history. That's how this whole thing will end too.
Let's use your reasoning. Palestinians wrongly blow cvilians up. That's unfair. Well, too bad, life's unfair. They should have received the support before the barberic acts became SUPPOSEDLY necessary.
It is a commonly held belief that dictatorships are bad. It is not a commonly held belief that fish is bad. I don't like mushrooms, but I don't think they are bad. I also don't really care for socialist countries like found in many parts of Europe, but I would not say they are inherently bad. When one person has absolute control of the country, especially when they really have no qualifications, and can defy the will of the people he governs, not to mention kill those that don't go along, it is generally not a good thing. Arafat is the world's most famous Palestinian. He is from Egypt. Bama showed you several links explaing the origins of Palestinians. What you are saying is simply untrue. That is my point. Of course the Muslims say that land is theirs. Guess what, the Christian crusaders said the same in the Middle Ages and the Jews say the same thing now. Nothing gives Muslims special authority to decide what land belongs to what people. Not really always will be, otherwise all people would always be African. The fact that they where Jordanians when Israel took the disputed land means that they have no claims to the land outside of that made by Jordan. Jordan does not claim the land, in case you were wondering. So invasion is okay in a fair fight. Since Israels invasion was against Syria and Egypt, nations that felt they had the military power to destroy Israel, I guess that means you think their invasion was fair. In case you were wondering, the Soviets supplied the Arab nations in the same way that the US supplied Israel. Here is what the defense minister of Syria had to say:
The so called facts trying to erase the history of the Palestinians is bogus. Don't believe me? Just ask Norm Finklestein. You can discount the editorial parts of the article if you wish, but what Norm did was not editorial but factual in nature. So at least look at it from that standpoint.
Folks, this whole issue 'Palestinians' as a people obfuscates since it is irrelevant. Are there Amercians? Texans? So what? There are 2 peoples who live there now and something equitable must work for both for there to be peace. The way I see it, the Palestinians should get ALL 100% of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem (not the Wall). If the UN must have a presence in Jerusalem to protect holy sites, so be it. The right of return is the major issue remaining, and realistically, they will never be allowed to return (neither the Palestinians to Israel nor the Jews to the Arab countries). Doesn't mean that Israel and the International community shouldn't pony-up some funds to help resolve the issue (although it is unlikely that the Jews that were subsequently kicked-out of Arab countries will see any remuneration, so the Palestinians should be happy with $$$). IMHO.
Cohen, any chance of you becoming Prime Minister of Israel? Seriously. I wish people like you could come to power instead of the extremists... and if such a miracle could happen on the "other side" as well, we might actually get a peaceful solution to this madness.
Then I wish they could vote a government into power that wasn't dominated by extremists. And I don't doubt that your point is true. Politics is a crazy business. Look at this country... the majority is probably wondering as much about who that man really is in the White House as they are about whether to vote for him again. I don't think the current government in this country reflects the moderation of it's people any more than the Israeli one does, although that's a topic better left to a different thread.
Politics, for better or worse are different in Israel. People vote for different reasons. the saying goes something like, "In America they vote with their wallets, in Israel they vote with their lives." Sharon is engaged as we speak, in a fight against "the extremists." There's a coalition of parties to the right of Likud, led by Avigdor Lieberman, as well as people within his own party, led by Netanyahu who are trying to get rid of Sharon for daring to keep his campaign promises: peace, security and painful concessions. His popularity with his own party is very low, but it's high with the average Israeli voter. Likud failed to support his referendum on evacuating Gaza, but Likud isn't the majority of the people (no party is). Sharon, wouldn't even be in power, if it weren't for Shinui, a center party that campaigned to end military deferments for ther ultra-orthodox and and supports leaving the West Bank and Gaza. Likud is very irritated that Sharon is going to go for a full vote on his disengagement plan even though the people are largely in support of it, because it failed in a party vote. This is what people want, and he knows this. He's trying to give it to them. Sharon enjoys his popularity because he has conceded ideological defeat regarding the settlers and Palestinian statehood. This is good for Israel, good for the Palestinians, and good for the US. So, he's doing interviews right and left in the press to galvanize the voters, who support him. The same people he is fighting now are the same people who called Rabin a traitor. These are also the same crowd that get voted in from the residents of the same settlements that Sharon is proposing to dismantle, so it's not hard to understand why things are happening the way they are. There's a precedence for this, however. If this fails, Sharon will be out, terror activity will ramp back up (it's been quiet for 5 months now), the people will vote Likud out of fear, and they will have somone much more hawkish and unwilling to bend in principle, and less likely to form coalitions with the center and left and will form a coalition instead with the ultra-right and religious parties (who are not in the coalition now). Then you really WILL have an extremist government, and you can expect to see all the foreign journalists in Israel maintain their job security, because all the peace talk is going to evaporate. Of course, if Sharon gets his way, expect to see alot of ministers lose their jobs, for blocking him. Even ha'aretz (the Labor/Meretz paper) is running Op-Ed's in support of Sharon in his fight against these guys over disengagement. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/433737.html Sharon is taking a huge political risk and deserves credit for what he's trying (and has been trying) to do. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
There is no "Palestine" or "Palestinians." It's kind of hard to erase something that doesn't exist to begin with or ever did for that matter.
The people who are now called Palestinians are descendants of people that have been there for thousands of years. http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm Palestine was the name given to the area by the Roman conquerors and also used by the Arab conquerors. http://www.mideastweb.org/palrevolt.htm So as far as that name for the people living there it is a little less than 100 years younger than the United States. However the people who lived there for thousands of years did live there, and it was at times(depending on who controlled it) called Palestine. Here is more on the Heritage. http://www.cactus48.com/earlyhistory.html Furthermore if you want to talk about the Occupation being justified because Israel won the land after the 1967 war, let's look at this quote by Rabin [/quote]http://www.cactus48.com/1967war.html
