And reward butchery by giving them what they claim to want? That's really going to do wonders for terrorism. They'll think "gee, if we could bomb Spain and change the govt, bomb the hell out of defenseless civilians in Israel and they gave us what we want, how about we do it some more to see what other goodies they will give us!" You don't give in to terrorism like that. You kill the bastards and anyone who stands with them. Period. They can't be reasoned with. They can't be bargained with. They blow themselves to smithereens in the midst of innocent people, so how logical could they be?
No, there aren't many. They are relatively few. But it doesn't really matter what they think, it only matters what the leaders think - so muchfor democracy, ANYWHERE! No true Palestinian would accept anything that excludes all of Jerusalem. I'm not Palestinian - I wouldn't accept it. This isn't really a war of countries, it's a war of religions.
Don't bother on bamaslammer, he's a victim, it's not his fault. Not one person in here believes that bamaslammer knows what he's talking about, and it clear that he's been fed what he's saying. No one will deny that.
Yeah, right, whatever. Ridiculous. It is you who are a victim of "Palestinian" propaganda, who believes in the naive notion that if only the Israelis would give the "Palestinians" their land back, all would be well. Sure. Right. If you believe that then pigs fly, the sky is green and buffalo wings do come from buffalo. Did you read what Arafat and other "Palestinian" leaders have said on the subject? Apparently not. They will not be finished until there is no Israel. I just love this leftist arrogance that anyone who is not on your side is a "bobblehead" who just follows blindly to the tune of whatever Pied Piper of the Right is popular at the time. In fact, I find it sickening, but it is par for the course with many of these folks.
Originally posted by Sane No, there aren't many. They are relatively few. But it doesn't really matter what they think, it only matters what the leaders think - so muchfor democracy, ANYWHERE! In the short-term, leaders decide. Voters decide the leaders long-term. But the Palestinians don't have a democracy anyway, do they? No true Palestinian would accept anything that excludes all of Jerusalem. I'm not Palestinian - I wouldn't accept it. Wasn't Barak prepared to relinquish East Jerusalem? Guess it's possible then. This isn't really a war of countries, it's a war of religions. Didn't start as a war of religions. Started as a land war, no? Why not be resolved as one?
So what's new? The US gives billions to Israel each year. The EU gives the PLO hundreds of millions a year. It has always been this way. How else did you think the PLO sustains itself? Through the taxes Israel doesn't let it collect? Through the territories which Israel doesn't let it rule? Through the the millions of Palestinian citizens which Israel has driven into refugee camps? The Europeans and Russians have always been the Arab's biggest allies. And this policy has overwhelming support here too. The average European on the street doesn't care much about oil, but do enjoy immensely the moral superiority such a position gives them over the always-self-righteous Americans. I, for one, am in wholehearted agreement with the French EU MP. Peace will come a heck of a lot faster when both sides finds out how much they have to lose. As for Israel, that regime deserves a comeuppance worthy of its crimes. With Arab nukes too, the US would at least think with a clearer head before acting as Israel's lapdog, ignoring 6 billion people shouting us down while rampaging through foreign nations. Unfortunately, the EU are all signatory nations to the NPT, and therefore this EU MP is simply dreamcasting. Until Europe can come up with a real, coherent, and proactive common foreign and defense policy, the US won't give a crap about what they think.
The reason I started this thread was to dispel this notion. When an undemocratic PLO cannot make the peace. We sideline it. When a democratic Israel cannot make the peace. We need to sideline it too. We never asked Nazi Germany to hold a referendum on pulling out of Austria/Poland/Czechoslovakia. We never asked North Korea to hold a referendum on pulling out of South Korea. We never asked Iraq to hold a referendum on pulling out of Kuwait. And as far as I'm aware, Nazi Germany was a democracy too. Aggression is aggression. There shouldn't be a "peace plan" without the aggressors being first kicked out of the violated nations. The peace plan comes AFTER, not before. Regardless of what the aggressor people thinks.
As I said before, you don't give them a state as reward for terrorism. You give it to them because it's the correct and just thing to do. You also don't stop going after the terrorists. It wasn't the terrorists who bombed the trains in Spain that changed a govt. It was the govt. that tried to cover it up. I'm not advocating using logic with terrorists. I'm advocating using logic with the Palestinians. Any terrorists that are Palestinians should be elimminated. Hunt them down, and wipe them out as much as possible. Terrorism should be dealt with as a seperate issue from Palestinian statehood.
I think the effort would have to be coordinated. I think Israel once they got back within their own borders would be able to do a more effective job protecting them. International peace keepers should be brought in, as well. But I don't think it would have to just be the guys in Blue helmets keeping two sides apart and handing out food. That could be part of it, but I'd like to see people go in and actually start training the new Palestinian security force. Lend them CIA, Law enforcement, and perhaps even Israeli counter-terrorism folks to do the training, give them technology equipment, and info.
One of the problems is that the Palestinian security forces are often connected to/consisting of terrorists. It is no secret that many terrorists "arrested" by the Palestinians are put right back out on the street. Israel putting them in charge of going after the terrorists would be like the US putting the KKK in charge of integrating schools.
To an extent what you say is true, and is a genuine concern. It doesn't rise to the level of the KKK looking after integration, but it is a concern. That's why I advocate bringing in international troops, and trainers to help build an anti-terror unit among the Palestinians. Part of the problem is that right now the security forces are trying to have an oppressed, occupied people from attacking the oppressors, settlers of their land, and foreign occupying army. Even if the members are against suicide bombings their heart just isn't going to be in it. But if it's a their own nation, and for once they have freedoms, no occupiers etc. and the terrorists may cost them those newly found freedoms they will have a definite interest in putting a halt to it.
I'm a victim of propaganda? Where do you live bama? Because I live in the U.A.E., which is a neutral country. It's in the Middle East. I see the American channels, I see the Arabic channels, and on my satellite, I even see the Israelis ones. You tell me. Who has a better picture, me or you?
- What's the point of democracy in Israel? All the leaders want the same thing, it's just a matter of who the people want to execute the plan. - Palestinians don't have bread to eat, much less democracy. Besides, democracy is not the Islamic way. - Not East Jerusalem. All of Jerusalem. - If their religions didn't exist, there would be no war, because Israelis would seek shelter wherever they were, and so would Palestinians. It's the religions that claim Palestine as each origin's homeland. If you want to make it a land war, then what right did Israel have to occupy Palestine in this modern time and age? Why wasn't Iraq allowed to occupy Kuwait? Clearly, this isn't just a land war. Land is just a part of it. - Everyone keeps talking about a fair fight. When America aids Palestine the same way it aids Israel, then we're talking fair. Only reason Palestinians blow themselves up is because they don't have weapons to do it properly. Still stupid, but definitely more understandeable. Don't tell me Palestine doesn't deserve it because they blow themselves up - this is not a chicken and egg theory. Poverty came first, terrorism came next. Let's opress Israelis people, take away their life and possesions, let's see what they would resort to.
Me. I've traveled in Israel extensively. I've been to the Gulf States. I know the situation, I know the players and I know, there never should be and never shall be a peaceful "Palestinian" state. That's just the way it is. Why should we reward poor behavior (killing of innocents as a matter of policy) by giving them what they "claim" they want. They want nothing less than the complete and utter destruction of Israel and its people. Period. They want nothing less.
but they were treated worse... They did get much pity, but did they save the people, will the dead come back to life, will the humiliation go away... Any self respecting man would rather do anything than be abused like the jews were, and im sure tehre were extremists who did everything in their power to fight back, but since they were underarmed, and didnt have the financial power to do anything, such a horible incident happened to them.
Traveling doesn't mean experiancing. You know how in movies they show the poor people saying that you can't fight for poverty, you aint never been poor... its kinda like that bama, you have never felt the pain of the palestinians to find out that there are pure everyday people who just want to raise their families, and live a normal life... but appparently all palestinians are out there calling for the destruction of Israelis, not a single one of them has israeli friends, nor do any of them live moral lives of citizens, and they all need to be pushed out of the region into some random Arab country... It seems to me like you are the one that wants to push one race to the sea, and see their destruction.
If I didn't have respect for the posters on this board, I'd call you out and ask you to prove that you've been to the Gulf States. I could've told you myself that you've ben to Israel - clearly someone is feeding you bull****. The same type of bull**** that is the cause of this war. Poor behaviour came after invasion. So why should the Israelis get aid from the United States when they invaded another country?
I'm just sick and tired of hearing how tiny Israel give up land to provide a state for a people that until very, very recently, were never considered a homogenous people of your own. A "Palestinian" state would be the destruction of Israel because they will not cease their efforts until their banner flies over all of the land there. I'm just amazed that so many folks here would side with the group who is actively butchering civilians as a matter of design and not by accident. With these kind of actions, they deserve a state? I think not. I'm not for killing the "Palestinians," but sending them back to the Arab states where they belong.
