1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Palestine now a non-member observer state thanks to landslide UN Vote, US pissed off

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Mathloom, Nov 30, 2012.

  1. LCAhmed

    LCAhmed Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2009
    Messages:
    11,034
    Likes Received:
    1,631
    Glad to see Palestine is making progress! This is a step in the right direction in my book!
     
  2. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Messages:
    31,264
    Likes Received:
    14,820
  3. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2000
    Messages:
    21,631
    Likes Received:
    6,261
  4. DimeDropper

    DimeDropper Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2012
    Messages:
    389
    Likes Received:
    25
    RT is more credible than Fox, Cletus.
     
  5. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Messages:
    15,196
    Likes Received:
    2,196
    You didn't even watch the video you posted? Why on earth did you post it?
     
  6. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    18,459
    Likes Received:
    18,554
  7. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    26,925
    Likes Received:
    2,267
    you just pwn3d yourself.

    from your article:
     
  8. mgraye2969

    mgraye2969 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2009
    Messages:
    761
    Likes Received:
    52
    It is factual...It could have a little more info, but for the most part it is stating facts. Just because you say it is trash, does not mean it isn't true.
     
  9. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    69,346
    Likes Received:
    46,891
    Kwame is just hating, as usual.
     
  10. apollo33

    apollo33 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    20,395
    Likes Received:
    16,581
    JIDF please go
     
  11. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    18,459
    Likes Received:
    18,554
    That was in the first link too. The one that wasn't credible enough for you. See:

    It's not for Israel to decide. It's also very clear that this is a punishment, as stated by the stooges themselves:

    I ask again, and I worded it carefully to make it very clear: how is the credibility of the source critical to your assessment of the matter?
     
  12. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    18,459
    Likes Received:
    18,554
    Dear Americans,

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/I5xjMa128ng" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
  13. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    18,459
    Likes Received:
    18,554
    http://rt.com/news/uk-france-israel-settlement-105/
     
  14. Kojirou

    Kojirou Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,180
    Likes Received:
    281
    You REALLY don't think the Israelis could make things a hundred times worse for the Palestinians if they wanted to? And you really don't think that they wouldn't do that if the ICC ( a court which it should be noted, Israel has not acceded to?) put their leadership on trial? How do you think most Americans ( and I mean most Americans, not most of the members on this board who would be dancing on the streets) would react and feel about the UN if they tried Bush tomorrow?

    @Northside: Democracy is valuable only insofar as it provides good government, I don't particularly value it in and of itself.

    Fox News may be ****, but they aren't state-funded and none of their contributors are as loony as stinking Alex Jones. RT has no credibility and I take anyone who actually seriously follows their articles with a massive grain of salt.
     
  15. IzakDavid13

    IzakDavid13 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2011
    Messages:
    9,958
    Likes Received:
    801
    Just wondering, Have you ever felt the need to contribute to it?
     
  16. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    17,813
    Likes Received:
    3,407
    Mathloom, thanks for the Amira Hass video. Very impressive. I had read a thing or two of hers, but was not very familiar.

    Hopefully they don't fire her from her paper.
     
  17. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    54,684
    Likes Received:
    42,807
    Just heard on the news that France and the UK are calling in the Israeli ambassadors in their respective countries to criticize the move to build 3,000 new homes in the West Bank.
     
  18. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    54,684
    Likes Received:
    42,807
    Bit of a tangent. Democracy doesn't guarantee good government but it is the only way to peacefully allow for citizens to have a say in their government and to change government. There are such things as benevolent dictatorships but if the dictatorship no longer serves the interest of the people there is no way to change that short of violent revolution.
     
  19. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    18,459
    Likes Received:
    18,554
    No you are confusing a couple of things. Israel could flatten almost any single country except for maybe 8-9. This is because they have a tremendous air force, hundreds of nukes, chemical/biological weapons and a well-trained army backed up by IIRC 750,000 soldiers they can call up at any moment.

    Israel could make things literally a million times worse. There is no amount of Hamas/Fatah rockets that could stop or alter the behavior of the Israeli government. Israel can defeat all its neighbours simultaneously - nevermind the 12,000 basement-trained Hamas members who make rockets out of fertilizer in their backyard as their only weapon which has zero accuracy. Look no further than 11,000 rockets ever fired by them (since 2001) with a handful of casualties.

    In a vaccuum, Israel can do a lot. But the source of this power is not Israel, it's the support of a certain set of countries. So today, Israel is what its supporters have made it and continue to make it. There will always be war-mongering Israelis - like any other country. But the ability of those war-mongers to come to power and execute their power with little official scrutiny is not endless. It's not limitless like the amount of weapons Israel can obtain or the number of people it can kill. Its limits are where the US and its buddies set them. While the US will always be the wild card, those buddies are hugely valuable to the economy of Israel, to the public perception of Israel, to the level of journalistic scrutiny Israel receives, etc. These are important things and they are the next step. We are not going to go overnight to a situation where the world powers change their mind about supporting Israel. The next logical step is the United States becomes even more isolated in its support - both horizontally (its friends) and vertically (its citizens).

    So the way this goes is that Israel is at a very sensitive point right now. It CAN do worse. But I suggest that we are getting close to the point where every escalation by Israel causes fractures in the relationships between: (1) world powers and their citizens and (2) between world powers. This vote IMO was very positive - while still fantastically skewed given the overall picture, it has dared some countries to go a little bit further in their criticism of Israel. The EU is splitting on the settlement issue - google it. While the tide in Europe was heading to the right (and still is in some places), the outcome looks like among a whole host of things the people of Europe are starting to lean left. This is going to translate upwards given they are among the more democratic countries.

    On the other hand, your politicians continue to fervently support Israel and largely turning a blind-eye to settlement issues. As was reported earlier, congress does not even discuss these issues preferring to spend time on pushing creationism in schools and deciding whether or not abortion is OK in the year 2012.

    The rest of the world has always and will always be on the Palestinian side. Russia and China will be on the Palestinian side, and more staunchly as long as you are on the Israeli side. The widening gap between European and American opinion on Israel is significant, even if it will take a long time to materialize. So the question is not: can't Israeil kill more Palestinian civilians and targets? Yes it can. But the real question is: how many more Palestinian civilians can Israel kill while continuing to receive unwavering support from Europe?

    Not long I say. Will Israel escalate if they are tried by the ICC? I guess the answer is yes if you are of the mindset that Israel is not going to do the same thing again unless provoked. I'm of the opinion that Israel does not need to be provoked to drag its people and, more fatally, Palestinians into another terror campaign. If they are tried, they'll do another Cast Lead or Pillar of Whatever.

    I am more shocked that you seem to believe there is a way of dealing with these things such that Israel does not engage in another "surgical operation" - that is, of course, other than the disintegration of Hamas + the handing over of lands sought by extremist Israelis + acepted occupation + giving up rights to Palestinian assets + giving up right of return + giving up all of Jerusalem + little to no sovereignty.

    Perhaps I should have re-phrased: what would Israeli do that it was not going to do exactly within 4 years which would not undermine the support it lives on if it was convicted by the ICC, to which it has not "acceded"?
     
  20. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    18,459
    Likes Received:
    18,554

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now