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Palestine now a non-member observer state thanks to landslide UN Vote, US pissed off

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Mathloom, Nov 30, 2012.

  1. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    9 countries who voted against the resolution were the very pissed off and disappointed United States of America. Tag-alongs Canada and Israel. Czech Republic, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Panama.

    138 countries voted FOR. 41 abstained.

    Perspective:
    ~ 71.5% for.
    ~ 21.5% abstained.
    ~ 4.5% against.

    Of the 5 permanenet members who can veto anything in the security council, France/China/Russia voted for the resolution. The UK abstained. Czech Republic was the only EU country to vote against.

    This resolution recognizes the State of Palestine within the 1967 borders i.e. the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. It also crucially gives them access to the International Criminal Court - unlikely that Abbas uses this, but it's now an option for them maybe after he's gone.

    Israel insists that this is a "one-sided act", an act which Israel itself has engaged in by.. uhh, I don't know, declaring and achieving statehood. Netenyahu's spokesperson:

    Parts of a USA Today article:

    Congratulations to Palestinians and Israelis. A nice stepping stone for the peace and security of civilian Palestinians and Israelis. Those who love war are not happy today, and they can suck it as we enjoy this tiny microscopic victory.
     
    #1 Mathloom, Nov 30, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012
  2. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Seems like another promising step to ovecome Israeli opposition to a just solution to the problems. To the extent it makes Israel more careful wrt to committing war crimes that is good, too. I assume this makes the Palestinian I call it proto-state subject to the ICC, too. It will be good to try to inject some law and order vs brute military force into the equation.

    In the short run it might lead to a desire for greater oppression by Israel and hence there are going to be bills in the US Congress to punish the Palestinians for doing this.

    Except for the Czech Republic all of Asia, Europe, Africa voted for the resolution.

    Canada our closest neighbor with a currently conservative government and Panama who we have invaded and have great influence in were the only other sizeable countries joining Israel and the US. There were the four tiny Island nations of Narau, Micronesia, Palau and the Marshall Islands, some of which have been US dependencies.

    The price for Israel and also the US continue to rise for their obstruction.

    My only question is does this somehow impede the one non-religious privileged state for all, which seems most just and more in line with a modern conception of the role of religious freedom and equality.
     
    #2 glynch, Nov 30, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012
  3. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    The thing that I am confused about is when these leaders display such utter disdain for democratic values and freedom, why on earth do the citizens think their leaders would not do the same to their own citizens? History has shown that a government's behavior outside its borders holds the same principles within the borders.
     
  4. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=294081
     
  5. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    It gives Abbas the same recognition as the Vatican. But any real change is still in the hands of Israel. The UN has been ruling on the illegality of the occupation since the 70s, but Israel still remains the party doing the occupying, and ultimately decides the fate of the people there.

    That's also why the International Court of Justice is unlikely to enforce anything. Israel (like the US) is not a participant, so nothing they pass would be binding.

    This helps Abbas regain some much needed credibility, which I think is a small consolation prize after the rest of the world threw him under the bus during the Gaza war.

    But as it is, Hamas is gaining in popularity in the West Bank, Likud is polling very high, and they just kicked out the few sane moderates that were left in the recent Likud primary.

    The Israeli gov't (and the votes against, including our Sec of State) see it as a unilateral end-run around negotiations.

    And many Palestinians see it as too little too late.

    But there is some hope that it could lead to reconciliation with Hamas (who was against, then for, then against, and finally for the statehood bid).
     
  6. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

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    No "state" can consider itself a nation when it allows a terrorist group to operate without contestation within its borders threatening the lives and citizens of a foreign country.
     
  7. REEKO_HTOWN

    REEKO_HTOWN I'm Rich Biiiiaaatch!

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    I guess Mexico isn't a state then. They've murdered more people then Hammas.
     
  8. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    If the US hypothetically quit supporting Israel and began supporting Palestine, the the tables would turn immediately regardless of what the Israeli leaders want and regardless of how many rockets Hamas fires. It is in the hands of the United States and before that the United Kingdom. In the same way that Suharto was simply told that his policies in East Timor had to come to an abrupt end, and in the same way that Suharto's beliefs did not matter before and after his policies in East Timor massacred hundreds of thousands, all it takes is to change the whim of US politicians.

    One day when the US can't afford this friendship anymore, and when oil is less important to it, these things wil change. The day after it changes, the Regevs and the Netenyahu's will still be saying the same thing, and the only difference will be that no one will care.

    It is simply a matter of artificial legitimacy and financial support. The United Nations is a tool of the most powerful countries to achieve their imperialist policies with less bloodshed - this shields their leaders from their own citizens. The actions and the outcomes may be meaningess, but the votes mean a lot. The votes show that the US is becoming more and more isolated, and the UN Security Council has lessening legitimacy. Add this to the list of votes where the US has single handedly ensured that Israel has 3 legs up on the Palestinians. Today, even Israeli politicians are saying what I've been saying for ages - that these policies have empowered Hamas. That the sabotaged peace negotiations have forced Palestinians to work with their existing crappy options.

    It is in Israel's hand as long as America is holding Israel's other hand. Like I said, it's a microscopic victory, but a victory nonetheless, and definitely worthwhile watching war mongers pissed off at how it went. They will always claim to act in the name of peace, but on days like these, they look like even bigger fools than usual in their interviews. After the way the last peace negotiations went with Israel insisting on unfreezing settlement expansion while talks were ongoing and simultaneously insisting that Palestinians do not bring any "preconditions" to the table... This vote puts that hypocrisy on the world stage for the world to see, even if the world has no official power to change anything. In the hopes that one of these days the world and the citizens of Palestine and Israel will rise up against this sham and let the peaceful people of both countries seek a solution that allows them to put this behind them and look forward to pursuing their regular human dreams, goals and objectives.
     
  9. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    That's been the reasoning when Spain has generally voted against these things (ETA troubles of their own), but this time they didn't.
     
  10. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    This is perhaps the worst argument to use. Perhaps Deji can explain to you how the IDF was born and what the founding members were doing in the decade before Israel gained statehood.
     
  11. AMS

    AMS Contributing Member

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    Israel is exactly what you just defined.
     
  12. Hydhypedplaya

    Hydhypedplaya Member

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    bigtexxx just got pwned
     
  13. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

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    a laughable response

    without contestation -- you must have missed that part of my post
     
  14. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

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    trying to deflect attention

    didn't work
     
  15. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    The main difference between Mandate-era Israeli militias (or freedom fighters, or terrorists, if you prefer -- I doubt any of the living ex-members would be offended) and Palestinian ones is that Ben-Gurion declared there was going to be one army under civillian command, and anyone opposing it would be shot.

    And he meant it. It warrants adding that the Irgun was the militia that later evolved into Likud.

    Fatah is opposed by a such a large range of ideologies, PFLP (Marxist-Leninist and anti-religious), to Hamas and Islamic Jihad (who look to Iran the most as models of "revolution") it's hard to see them being able to pull off the same thing and being able to police them in a future state.

    The one thing that could work is maybe if Israel released Barghouti...who in polls is the only person supporters of all ideologies would support in a combined majority.

    Barghouti has better clout to put together a coalition than anyone, but Israel isn't keen to release a convicted murderer.
     
  16. mgraye2969

    mgraye2969 Member

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    Would this man really try and make peace with Israel?
     
  17. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Was the United States a nation in the 1800's when the KKK comitted terrorist acts?
     
  18. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    Palestine becomes a non-member observer state and Mathloom comes to basketball forum to gloat where most of the members don't care one way or the other.
     
    1 person likes this.
  19. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    ...and the usual suspects (the two Islamist-leaning cousins and the ultra-leftist) join in the gloating...
     
  20. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

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    horrible, irrelevant post

    give me a break

    you're better than that
     

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