1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Palestine now a non-member observer state thanks to landslide UN Vote, US pissed off

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Mathloom, Nov 30, 2012.

Tags:
Page 1 of 7
  1. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    18,396
    Likes Received:
    18,429
    9 countries who voted against the resolution were the very pissed off and disappointed United States of America. Tag-alongs Canada and Israel. Czech Republic, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Panama.

    138 countries voted FOR. 41 abstained.

    Perspective:
    ~ 71.5% for.
    ~ 21.5% abstained.
    ~ 4.5% against.

    Of the 5 permanenet members who can veto anything in the security council, France/China/Russia voted for the resolution. The UK abstained. Czech Republic was the only EU country to vote against.

    This resolution recognizes the State of Palestine within the 1967 borders i.e. the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. It also crucially gives them access to the International Criminal Court - unlikely that Abbas uses this, but it's now an option for them maybe after he's gone.

    Israel insists that this is a "one-sided act", an act which Israel itself has engaged in by.. uhh, I don't know, declaring and achieving statehood. Netenyahu's spokesperson:

    Parts of a USA Today article:

    Congratulations to Palestinians and Israelis. A nice stepping stone for the peace and security of civilian Palestinians and Israelis. Those who love war are not happy today, and they can suck it as we enjoy this tiny microscopic victory.
     
    #1 Mathloom, Nov 30, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012
  2. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    17,792
    Likes Received:
    3,395
    Seems like another promising step to ovecome Israeli opposition to a just solution to the problems. To the extent it makes Israel more careful wrt to committing war crimes that is good, too. I assume this makes the Palestinian I call it proto-state subject to the ICC, too. It will be good to try to inject some law and order vs brute military force into the equation.

    In the short run it might lead to a desire for greater oppression by Israel and hence there are going to be bills in the US Congress to punish the Palestinians for doing this.

    Except for the Czech Republic all of Asia, Europe, Africa voted for the resolution.

    Canada our closest neighbor with a currently conservative government and Panama who we have invaded and have great influence in were the only other sizeable countries joining Israel and the US. There were the four tiny Island nations of Narau, Micronesia, Palau and the Marshall Islands, some of which have been US dependencies.

    The price for Israel and also the US continue to rise for their obstruction.

    My only question is does this somehow impede the one non-religious privileged state for all, which seems most just and more in line with a modern conception of the role of religious freedom and equality.
     
    #2 glynch, Nov 30, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012
  3. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    18,396
    Likes Received:
    18,429
    The thing that I am confused about is when these leaders display such utter disdain for democratic values and freedom, why on earth do the citizens think their leaders would not do the same to their own citizens? History has shown that a government's behavior outside its borders holds the same principles within the borders.
     
    #3 Mathloom, Nov 30, 2012
  4. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    18,396
    Likes Received:
    18,429
    http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=294081
     
    #4 Mathloom, Nov 30, 2012
  5. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 1999
    Messages:
    4,012
    Likes Received:
    950
    It gives Abbas the same recognition as the Vatican. But any real change is still in the hands of Israel. The UN has been ruling on the illegality of the occupation since the 70s, but Israel still remains the party doing the occupying, and ultimately decides the fate of the people there.

    That's also why the International Court of Justice is unlikely to enforce anything. Israel (like the US) is not a participant, so nothing they pass would be binding.

    This helps Abbas regain some much needed credibility, which I think is a small consolation prize after the rest of the world threw him under the bus during the Gaza war.

    But as it is, Hamas is gaining in popularity in the West Bank, Likud is polling very high, and they just kicked out the few sane moderates that were left in the recent Likud primary.

    The Israeli gov't (and the votes against, including our Sec of State) see it as a unilateral end-run around negotiations.

    And many Palestinians see it as too little too late.

    But there is some hope that it could lead to reconciliation with Hamas (who was against, then for, then against, and finally for the statehood bid).
     
    #5 Deji McGever, Nov 30, 2012
  6. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    26,925
    Likes Received:
    2,265
    No "state" can consider itself a nation when it allows a terrorist group to operate without contestation within its borders threatening the lives and citizens of a foreign country.
     
    #6 bigtexxx, Nov 30, 2012
  7. REEKO_HTOWN

    REEKO_HTOWN I'm Rich Biiiiaaatch!

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    46,842
    Likes Received:
    18,563
    I guess Mexico isn't a state then. They've murdered more people then Hammas.
     
    #7 REEKO_HTOWN, Nov 30, 2012
  8. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    18,396
    Likes Received:
    18,429
    If the US hypothetically quit supporting Israel and began supporting Palestine, the the tables would turn immediately regardless of what the Israeli leaders want and regardless of how many rockets Hamas fires. It is in the hands of the United States and before that the United Kingdom. In the same way that Suharto was simply told that his policies in East Timor had to come to an abrupt end, and in the same way that Suharto's beliefs did not matter before and after his policies in East Timor massacred hundreds of thousands, all it takes is to change the whim of US politicians.

    One day when the US can't afford this friendship anymore, and when oil is less important to it, these things wil change. The day after it changes, the Regevs and the Netenyahu's will still be saying the same thing, and the only difference will be that no one will care.

    It is simply a matter of artificial legitimacy and financial support. The United Nations is a tool of the most powerful countries to achieve their imperialist policies with less bloodshed - this shields their leaders from their own citizens. The actions and the outcomes may be meaningess, but the votes mean a lot. The votes show that the US is becoming more and more isolated, and the UN Security Council has lessening legitimacy. Add this to the list of votes where the US has single handedly ensured that Israel has 3 legs up on the Palestinians. Today, even Israeli politicians are saying what I've been saying for ages - that these policies have empowered Hamas. That the sabotaged peace negotiations have forced Palestinians to work with their existing crappy options.

    It is in Israel's hand as long as America is holding Israel's other hand. Like I said, it's a microscopic victory, but a victory nonetheless, and definitely worthwhile watching war mongers pissed off at how it went. They will always claim to act in the name of peace, but on days like these, they look like even bigger fools than usual in their interviews. After the way the last peace negotiations went with Israel insisting on unfreezing settlement expansion while talks were ongoing and simultaneously insisting that Palestinians do not bring any "preconditions" to the table... This vote puts that hypocrisy on the world stage for the world to see, even if the world has no official power to change anything. In the hopes that one of these days the world and the citizens of Palestine and Israel will rise up against this sham and let the peaceful people of both countries seek a solution that allows them to put this behind them and look forward to pursuing their regular human dreams, goals and objectives.
     
    #8 Mathloom, Nov 30, 2012
  9. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 1999
    Messages:
    4,012
    Likes Received:
    950
    That's been the reasoning when Spain has generally voted against these things (ETA troubles of their own), but this time they didn't.
     
    #9 Deji McGever, Nov 30, 2012
  10. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    18,396
    Likes Received:
    18,429
    This is perhaps the worst argument to use. Perhaps Deji can explain to you how the IDF was born and what the founding members were doing in the decade before Israel gained statehood.
     
    #10 Mathloom, Nov 30, 2012
  11. AMS

    AMS Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2003
    Messages:
    9,646
    Likes Received:
    218
    Israel is exactly what you just defined.
     
    #11 AMS, Nov 30, 2012
  12. Hydhypedplaya

    Hydhypedplaya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,134
    Likes Received:
    89
    bigtexxx just got pwned
     
    #12 Hydhypedplaya, Nov 30, 2012
  13. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    26,925
    Likes Received:
    2,265
    a laughable response

    without contestation -- you must have missed that part of my post
     
    #13 bigtexxx, Nov 30, 2012
  14. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    26,925
    Likes Received:
    2,265
    trying to deflect attention

    didn't work
     
    #14 bigtexxx, Nov 30, 2012
  15. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 1999
    Messages:
    4,012
    Likes Received:
    950
    The main difference between Mandate-era Israeli militias (or freedom fighters, or terrorists, if you prefer -- I doubt any of the living ex-members would be offended) and Palestinian ones is that Ben-Gurion declared there was going to be one army under civillian command, and anyone opposing it would be shot.

    And he meant it. It warrants adding that the Irgun was the militia that later evolved into Likud.

    Fatah is opposed by a such a large range of ideologies, PFLP (Marxist-Leninist and anti-religious), to Hamas and Islamic Jihad (who look to Iran the most as models of "revolution") it's hard to see them being able to pull off the same thing and being able to police them in a future state.

    The one thing that could work is maybe if Israel released Barghouti...who in polls is the only person supporters of all ideologies would support in a combined majority.

    Barghouti has better clout to put together a coalition than anyone, but Israel isn't keen to release a convicted murderer.
     
    #15 Deji McGever, Nov 30, 2012
  16. mgraye2969

    mgraye2969 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2009
    Messages:
    761
    Likes Received:
    52
    Would this man really try and make peace with Israel?
     
    #16 mgraye2969, Nov 30, 2012
  17. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    54,385
    Likes Received:
    113,423
    Was the United States a nation in the 1800's when the KKK comitted terrorist acts?
     
    #17 Nook, Nov 30, 2012
  18. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    56,457
    Likes Received:
    48,416
    Palestine becomes a non-member observer state and Mathloom comes to basketball forum to gloat where most of the members don't care one way or the other.
     
    #18 KingCheetah, Nov 30, 2012
    1 person likes this.
  19. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    69,037
    Likes Received:
    46,397
    ...and the usual suspects (the two Islamist-leaning cousins and the ultra-leftist) join in the gloating...
     
    #19 AroundTheWorld, Nov 30, 2012
  20. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    26,925
    Likes Received:
    2,265
    horrible, irrelevant post

    give me a break

    you're better than that
     
    #20 bigtexxx, Nov 30, 2012
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 1 of 7

Share This Page

Toggle Width
Style
ClutchFans Original

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Rockets Content

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now