Exactly! Some people have really high opinion of Wally World. The guy cant even create his own freakin shot. Just because he luckily made the all-star team one year does not mean he is a franchise player. Andre Miller is a franchise player. It would take much more the Serbiatch to get a top 5 pg.
That may be true, but Clevelad is already talking **** about not giving Miller his money. It may take Wally and Joe Smith or some other player, but the way cleveland is talking they don't tink Miller is worth the money.
That's going to be one of Cleveland's biggest mistakes if they let him go like that. I think it would be similar to the way Phoenix or Dallas feel now that Kidd is so good. I think Miller will excel like Baron Davis has.
Just because a team can't or won't pay a player the max, it doesn't mean that they are going to give him away for under market value. If Cleveland wants to move Miller, then they'll get alot of attractive offers and will take the best one.
I don't get this Miller-Cavalier estrangement. What say does John Lucas have? He played PG for God's sake... he should know. The rest of the league apparently loves Miller. Anyone heard any negative outside of Cleveland sources? Is anyone/everyone willing to pay him the max except Cleveland?
Andre Miller is VERY overrated. He is a poor shooter, and a very poor 1on1 defender. The only reason he has a high assist count is because of the style of ball his team plays. Lamond Murray and Wes Person are the main scorers, all they do is get the ball and shoot right away.
The Answer to all this ..... is in the way we all think on this board. We don’t see a end result as the objective. We see the struggle to get there. Maybe we have been burned all too often. We are a;so the most informed and critically intelligent fan based groups you will find in the NBA. I have a very healthy respect for all of your opinions. But don't get jaded by the reality. It is possible. We just have to go through the first couple of struggles to get to realizing it is possible. The steps, the timing, the moves, the talks, the negotiation are all just that. Preliminary. We'll know soon enough. Garnett 1. Stand up and be counted. Would Garnett help us in any way? Would he save this franchise from mediocrity? Would he do more than a dozen Mings? Okay now that we filled our ego-bag is it possible? 2. If Garnett wants to go to Rocketsville he will go to Rocketsville. I am not saying now , nor have I said previous that this would be (a) a foregone conclusion, or (b) easy to accomplish. 3. I am not even advocating that it is the best thing to do. Well … at this point anway. I sure would want to know the cost. But ... I could take a lot ... certainly as much if not more than the five for two swap. 4. Minnesota is in a funk They need picks in the coming years (except next). They have to add some spark. Their star p[layer is feeling the pressure. The team is in far morte turmoil then anyone in this league is attempting to recognize.There is history to support a team that has a franchise sitting on their doorstep and they turn from him. Alcindor, Wilt, Barkley (twice,maybe if you consider Phoenix). We only have to look at the recent Rockets move to dismantle a team that was gelling, a championship TEAM with the fortitude to move on … torn up to make room of a bold move … sending Horry, ET, etc… on their way. 5. If anyone is telling me that this administration will not do what they think is right for the team. If you think Les is a hands-off owner - then you better start thinking about last summer. Aelliott, et al You have legitimate questions but a decent sense of the surreal too. 1. I capitulate. 2. How do they do it? I have no answer for you. Who does? I ahve trouble trying to figure out what keeps a plane in the air! 3. I do know that the Rockets are looking at these angles. (a) To Ming or not to Ming. Some (Les and others) does not want to get tied up with Ming. Star or no star. Blockbuster mega media or small town mediocrity. Take your take. Ming has heavy baggage that will possibly get lighter as China and others find negotiating with a hardnosed businessman a hard pill to swallow. But the next and probably the most important is – can he play here. Can he be the Akeem/Hakeem of the next millennium? Make no mistake, this is what they are asking. So far they are not convinced. (b) What are the choices if Ming is not their man? Okay we have MC Hale calling CD. CD calling multiple times to McHale. . McHale’s pissed off. Has a problem. Still seething over his owner/boss’s debacle and McHale’s punishement for it. He is also (on the big scope) trying to right a yawed ship. Garnett is getting flak. KG is saying all the wrong things. “ I am not a star I’m a role player”, “I want to play on a team that has more than one go-to guy” (The guys in the lockeroom must have loved that!), McHale’s personally picked coach is pretty close to being asked to leave. There is room to move here for the Rockets. See it or forget trying to make an argument. (c) How do we do it? The most logical is to try and take advantage of any and all situations. They talk (McHale and CD – CD and RT talk at length several times after the initial foray.) McHale says that he basically will not gut the Rockets by taking Francis but wants a freehand to put an offer on the table (basically let me put together a package and it will include anyone but Francis) … “what would you offer?” … “what do you want?” …. Ah! Initial openings of a negotiation. What would it take? They are talking … You want to know what it would take? Because I don’t. Like I posted – tough … long shot … fun to speculate … but doable at some level. Personally I think it would take a third team and maybe more. (d) Are the Rockets capable of doing it? You want to bet your sweet bippy they are. Personally if Garnett ever became a Rocket IMHO it would be a turning of the franchise that will be talked about for decades (maybe more). It is still slim. But it is doable. I think it would have to involve draft choices for both the Rockets and any third team involved. It would require one of the untouchables that I heard RT list several times in one day – Francis – Cat – Griffin, despite his misgivings. Do I think he would do it? YES. (e) What are the chances of all this happening? Slim to none. It’s a tough table. The only saving grace is that we have the number one and two in the top fifteen …. And,many … I mean many … teams wants that number one pick. Finding a two team tandem (Rockets being one of those teams of course) that will give Minnesota what they want – (1) respectability next year, (2) a chance at the ring in three years and (3) gaining back some drafts and big time move-ability – while unloading their most dominant player in franchise history. They want picks as many as possible. Load them up. They will only take - difference makers - That means more than two or three players – Spree, Ben Wallace, Cuttino, Marian, Rasheed, Iverson, etc, etc, etc … Pick any two, maybe three … plus a ton of picks and ask me if you don’t think Kevin will nod his head. Is this as big (all) as it is being made out to be? (a) Yeah I think it is. There is no downside except if they take Ming and he flubs. (b) Upside is they take Ming and he singes all the negative speculation. He breaks the new house in - in a new Rockets era. He’s the new Akeem but taller and paler. He is indestructible, teachable, bounds down the court in a flurry and swats anything within ten feet of the net. He’s the new style and he adds grace to a faltering league of street players. He opens the Asian market of the money hungry backrooms. Don’t think that David Stern doesn’t want this kid to be the superstar a lot are touting him to be. (c) The safest move may still be to take what is known. Take the two or three players (or one if you see KG in the wings) now, then grab the ring in two years. The Draft 1. IMHO this draft … as far as drafts go … is first round average and paper thin beyond the 30th pick. Jay Williams is the only guy who I would predict to be a solid NBA player with all star written all over him. I would like to see him go to a team with a decent first guard and make him play the off. Everyone reading this deserves to watch him play at least once. He is faster than grease through a goose and will be utterly unstoppable. 2. I like Chris Marcus. He’s a tower of power. 3. I think Gooden may become the best of the best forwards … and there is a lot of them. 4. I like Tski and RT does too by the way. “ …. (shakes head) … whew … he can do a whole lot with a ball … he looked good ...real good …”
I don't know what the offer for KG would have to be either, but I do know that it would start with the #1 and EG. Obviously we can lose EG if we get KG and the #1 would net them Williams, but after that? I dunno, we'd have to give up so much salary it would gut us. Glen Rice is who they'd want since he's off the books in a year and we don't really want him anyways, but after that we have to lose someone that has a big salary but we might need. Cato or Mo would be the one to go and we'd need both after losing EG and the #1 (which would presumably net us another big body). Cato is probably the guy we'd want to keep and the guy they'd prefer to have since he can play some center. If they took Mo instead of Cato we could live with that. After those 4 guys I don't know who else they'd want (though I'm sure its someone). #15? Future picks? This is where it gets hairy because picks are what we can offer that they'd want. How many would you give up? When would you give them up? I think to get KG we'd have to do something more complex so we get what we want. Like we trade for Odom and get 2 picks then turn around and trade Odom, both the 15 and one of the Clips picks, EG, and the salary dumpage of Mo and Rice. That seems like enough to get the deal done if we can pry the 2 picks and Odom out of LA for some combo of the #1 and a player or 2 that isn't involved in the trade with Minny (KT maybe?) So, we have KG, Steve, Cat, Mooch and Cato left as pretty much our only solid players. Can T-Mo be a decent backup? We'd have to use the #8 or 12 from the Clips to get a guy like Tsika or Butler (doubtful to still be there) to fill a SF role. Would Tsika be ready for the minutes? Who knows, but in the future that team would be scary: Franchise Mobley Tsika Garnett Cato That's a great starting 5 (especially the explosiveness of the backcourt and forwards). On the bench we'll be weak unless we use our midlevel wiselessly. Mooch, T-Mo, Collier, Walt? Eww, better hope no one gets injured.
Who WOULDN'T willingly thrown Griffin onto a deal for Garnett? Cleveland could be a nice partner in this 3-way thing. If we could somehow get them to send their first pick next year to Minny (likely a top 3 pick) and package that with our #1 and Griffin. We're getting somewhere then. The likes of TyHill and Rice could go to Minnesota, because their contracts are both short, and together make around 16M. Those contracts will turn into cap space when Minny will need it. We'd have to send something like MoTay and KT to Cleveland then maybe. Tough to work out, but the pieces are there. If we can keep Francis and Cat, there's no doubt we'll be contenders. Imagine, 2 triple double threats every night, along with a pure scorer to take pressure off them. Personally, I'd prefer it if KG played the 3. Then I wouldn't mind having whoever and whoever at the 4 and 5. I'd like to have 2 veterans who rebound and play D most. Please, make this work. Just Francis and KG alone is already going to put us in contention. Then there's Mobley too. It's too good.
Oeilpere your credibility is high with some people. I respect that. Im not going to try and take that away from you. You are dedicated to letting us know whats going on, on the inside. Im not going to totally try and take the piss from what you say but I will tell you my concern with your post. I would feel much more comfortable if your Garnett stuff wasn't fifty/fifty. As you continue to implore there is heavy talk in regards to Garnett yet you back away from saying something is going down and Garnett is going to be in a Rockets uniform next season. Whether anything happens or not how am I supposed to know whats true and whats misinformation? If Garnett ends up balling in a Rockets uniform then it makes it that much easier for you to say "I told you so". But if something doesn't go down you will be at it with people dropping the issue by giving them the "the chances were slim to begin with" treatment. Much props to you, Troy Baros and those who bring it to the boards but I will voice my concern before I take something in as authentic rather than someone just talking out of their ass.
oily: thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you everybody wants to talk risk. I would gladly risk cat and griffin for garnett. francis and garnett growing old together would be a thing of beauty. francis and garnett = payton and kemp in their primes, but maybe better. I think the only other team in the league with 2 all-star starters is L.A.? did pierce and walker both start? either way, 2 all-star starters if phat, like new ESPN the magazine. all nude. the mention of iverson is particularly interesting. a HOU-PHI-MIN 3-way? if we could get garnett and keep the #15 pick, I think I'd give MIN pretty much a blank check on the rest. also, I just went back and looked at the first two words of oily's post: "The Answer. . ."
Umm, how can it be giving them the bank if we keep our 3 best players? We have to give up AT LEAST 1 of those 3 to get Garnett and the obvious one that we could afford to lose is EG since KG will probably play his position. They probably wouldn't want Mobley as much since with the #1 they'll wan J-Will or they'll simply stand pat with Billups and Brandon as the backcourt. So its either Steve or EG and McHale has said (according to the source of this thread) that we wouldn't have to deal Steve. That leaves EG.
Oh my God, the Philly/Miny/Houston idea is brilliant. This trade was declined, but I'm sure only by a couple of million here and there. Here are the basics, with sweetning needed: Houston Sends: #1 (Philly) #15 (Philly) Cato (Minny) MoTaylor (Philly) Kenny Thomas (Minny) Glen Rice (Minny) Houston recieves: Kevin Garnett Minnesotta sends: Garnett (Houston) Brandon (Philly) Joe Smith (Philly) Marc Jackson (Philly) Minnesota recieves: Rice Cato Thomas Iverson Coleman Snow harpring Philadelphia sends: Iverson Coleman Harpring Eric Snow Philadelhia recieves: #1 #15 Mo Taylor Terrell Brandon Joe Smith Marc Jackson How does that sound?
So, Sane...are we going to have only like 7 or 8 players on our roster? What bsb8532 said...if we really are in the running of Garnett, we will have to part with at least one of EG, Mobley, and Francis regardless of how many teams we get involved.
Sane, very creative and complicated. Has there ever been a deal this big? Minny and Philly would basically be gutting their teams, something that I suspect that they want to happen.
Almost as good as Pamela Anderson moaning take me again Htown.......errrr sorry, it sounds pretty damn good lets leave it at that!
