It is ignorant to say that Ming will not be a Rocket because he will not help next year or the year after. Guess what...that is unimportant. The Rockets, without injury, are a possible playoff team without Ming. Yawn. So, next year, Ming can spend time learning the ropes and the Rockets can fight for the playoffs - with the added help of a Ming, #15, trade, or FA signing. Experience. The Rockets, regardless of draft, trade, and act of God, will not make the Finals next year. Ming's second year - he will be improved, Rockets will be improved...push harder or the same, does not matter. Third year maybe Ming is starting to really be something. Guess what - by this time, Griffin should also be pretty huge, Francis still going strong, starting his prime. Cat becoming the greatest jack in history, Mo T at the best chance of being his best after the injury (just will remain to be seen if it is better or worse than before), etc. NOW is when you start to care about how good Ming is. When you thank or damn yourself for the pick. Yeah, dump Rice's salary for a slighly better player on an equally large salary that lasts longer, trade the #1 for Gooden and Marcus. Then you have a bunch of decent guys and Francis for a couple of years. Even adding Odom (while subtracting a bunch) does little better for short-term success and less for long term. Damn, Bradley was taller and 230, Ming is shorter and 200. Bradley had taken two years off, Ming plays nonstop. Bradley had not played much basketball at all and is lazy. Ming has played all his life and has reportedly worked pretty hard (just looking at his legs shows he has been in the gym - now transfer that to upper body...he does not have to be Shaq, remember. Hell Dirk and KG play center at times...are they much bigger right now?). Bradley put up 10, 6, and 3 bpg his rookie year. Yeah, anything close to that from a project who is better than Bradley anyway would really hurt the Rockets. Cato just put up 6, 6, and 1... Lump of coal.
I just don't get these rumors that Yao will not contribute next year. He will get his shot off against anybody. He will swat a few shots and if EG's in the game at the same time.... Watch Out! No he won't be backing Shaq down in the post but who does? It's a Ming Thing. Passing on Ming would be a colossal mistake. I say this with all the confidence of someone who has not ever seen the guy play!
I don't know about Ming. If dude is not going to be in training camp, I say screw it. We don't need the headache. The pick is worth more traded than it is made on Ming. Honestly, I think it is hard for any of us to come to some sort of definitive conclusion, and seems a little silly for us to act like we have the full story. No one has it. We would if they did. On another note -- HP: were you being facetious ragging OP like that? I don't think anyone's opinions or posts should be beyond critique, but that seemed a little toxic to me. Just the Mr. Over Sensitive Thing, or the Owing Us An Apology thing seemed a little over the top. Again, just my opinion -- and HP is my MAN on this board -- but heavyweights sniping each other on this board always seems pretty unseemly to me. And HP takes more of it than he gives, so fair is fair... but I mean, I know friction can happen and all that, and I probably dont notice when other people duke it out, because I don't read everyone's posts very carefully. But to quote Rodney McCray, Can't we all just get along? The OP Opposition has an argument of course. But OP doesn't owe anyone an apology. Especially because I think being massively careful about this pick is crucial to the future of the franchise, and no need to apologize for that. I mean, a good link to post might be the playerfile on Wang Zhi Zhi. He's a pain in the ass, Cuban said it. Or maybe just because i like when OP posts about his daughter or cat or things about the rockets that I have no access to. Maybe I am oversensitive to those attacks. How may times has HP been reamed here? Probably a million. Who knows, i am capable of bias, too. With that out of the way... To me, the only sure thing is this: There is heavy burden in these strokes of luck, especially with the emergence of High School and International players as relatively-uninspected, high-stakes commodities. There is precious little information compared to the usual stack and stacks of film and paperwork and scouting reports and interviews and whatnot on college players. I mean, we have an entire industry doveted to scrutinizing and screening these guys, and Ming has only been through a tiny portion of it. Picking him may have a huge payoff. But allowing yourself to use such a percious commodity on The Yao Ming Package (big athletic guy with potential govt. interference, potential communication problems, lack of supersolid past competition, etc. etc. etc) must be an excruciating and anxiety provoking risk that goes against every instinct a quality organization has cultivated. Picking this guy is a no brainer on one hand (7-6, good player, etc.), and a no brainer on the other (you don't burn a pick on someone with so little of the documentation that usually goes into making a draft choice. Frankly, i don't know what to think. this is tough tough tough. I think I am leaning towards trading it. Will's "move everyone to a natural position" argument is soooooo good and tempting. But man, it is a big, big risk. Espeically seeing as though we could have guys we thought were untochable just a week ago. Rashard Freaking Lewis is high-payoff lower-risk. Odom, too. Garnett is high payoff no risk. He is also not coming here, so whatever, but you get my drift. There is hype both ways, risk both ways, courage both ways. Rudy, i used to try to make bank shots in my driveway pretneding to be you. I am gonna leave this one to you. This is tough. CBFC
Rocket River,I don't want to give up either Ming or Griffin but it will be hard to get anything easily from Jerry Krause. I only mentioned this because it's still possible that Ming may not be able to play for the entire season because of the demands of the Chinese authorities. If that is so,I would rather trade him and get a young player with size,like Curry or Chandler,but I have this feeling that Chicago won't agree to a straight up trade with Ming.
now that I have my rant out of the way for oeilpere waving his finger at the bbs about Ming = Bradley, not once, but twice; I can think of one trade that is conceivable for Garnett. It will HAVE to be a 3-way We trade the #1 and Griffin for Garnett and Minnesota trades Wally to Utah for Malone. That works give or take some more irrelevant trade fodder. Minn actually gets good value for Garnett and Wally and eliminates his salary in one year. But that trade will NEVER happen. China will go berserk. Malone has to OK it. And I'm not so sure it is a good trade for us, because I think more of Yao than oeilpere. oeilpere, thick skin, man. I love your writing. That first post was really funny. But man, after Doc Rocket said no one has "SEEN" Yao Ming, it gets tiring to hear you two mix your sources with your opinions and dis the bbs. I have too big of a BBall ego to be offended by your comment, but I'll still dis you back for saying it. Thick skin. I know you can do it. I love our oeilpere. CBFC, thx for the understanding and back-handed slap. Sorry if my dis back made people uncomfortable.
China won't go berserk because then the Bulls will select Ming. The only way I can see Minnesota making the trade for the #1 is to get Williams. Interesting idea about including Malone in a three way though. My only question is how Malone will take it. I'm sure he won't retire because he is trying too hard to go after Jabbar's record, but he will have a fit.
The Clippers asking for a high price, what could that be? If the Rockets could get Odom and Kandi I'd party hardy! That would give the Rockets a young, athletic team basically no older then 25 in the starting line-up, and a slew of young, talented players on the bench. The Rebuilding Process for all intent and purposes would be complete. In fact I wouldn't mind just taking Odom, I'd keep Cato at center. Of course the Garnett rumor is juicy!
We trade the #1 and Griffin for Garnett and Minnesota trades Wally to Utah for Malone. That works give or take some more irrelevant trade fodder. Minn actually gets good value for Garnett and Wally and eliminates his salary in one year. We give away $2-3M in salary and add $20M? It's going to take $15M worth of irrelevent trade fodder to make this work.
Utah's capspace isn't too important here. No team can add substantial salary through trade unless they are under the cap. In this scenario, we would be adding $17M in salary, and we are over the cap. Now, the solution is to throw $17 million in players at Utah & Minnesota, but that means sending them crap (Cato, Rice, etc) that they don't want or adding lots of our better, younger players.
cbfc, one more side note. the "you owe us an apology this time, Mr Over Sensitive" thing was a jab at pops pretty much demanding one before from Will and I (without naming names) in the GS trade thread in October. Yeah, it is added fuel for the dis back, but just facetious. btw: i never have really understood this "heavy weights duking it out, in grandstanding fashion" each conversation with posters is like any another to me, at least I want it to be that way. Some have a wider audience, though. There is a person behind the monitor to respect even while dissing each other's opinions. Dismissing people based on post counts is what I don't like.
They are all stupid ideas for Garnett. I meant you can split the fodder between two teams in a 3-way, that it doesn't get dumped on one team, and yes, I meant irrelevant fodder as in Pippen trade type fodder, Cato/Walt/Rogers/etc. where it is Cato/Rice/etc this time. The blockbuster people, they are not.
I have tried to come to the conclusion that Ming would be a good if not great draft pick, but I cannot see it. Although I am very impressed with quite a few posters who are saying how great he will be without having had the oppurtunity to watch him play over an extended period of time not to mention the level of competiton he has played againist in China. Granted he put up some awesome numbers, but the level of competition he faced will be nothing like he will face night in and night out in the NBA. To many if`s and to many maybe`s to contemplate using our #1 draft pick on.
great thread -- won't rehash anything op, hp, will, aelliot, tpl, or cbfc have eloquently pointed out I've not read every Ming thread, so forgive me if this has already been pointed out -- We've heard Ming compared to Bradley, Wang and Manute Bol but I have'nt seen a comparison to Sampson. From what I've read so far the two situations are the most similar: tons of hype, similar ages, similar games, similar builds and of course there is a similar Rocket connection. My point is this -- If Ming were to end up like Sampson, would you keep the pick or trade it? My vote is to trade it -- but only for a high price. My guess is that RT and CD had all prospects numbered in order of preference regardless of where we would be drafting -- Dunleavy, Butler, or Williams could be no. 1 on that list and Ming could be four. Trips to China, visits from relatives, public statements to the media, and even private comments to other GMs could all be posturing to milk the most out of the Ming situation. If we were to believe what they said about griffin being at the top of their list last year and they had the top pick -- i could see them trading down from No. 1 to No. 7, still getting the player they like and getting one or two impact players for the starting line-up as a bonus. If CD and RT use dealing this pick to cover past mistakes, as Will pointed out, I think that is a mistake. However, if they didn't like Ming to begin with, still get who they want at a lower pick, are able to acquire another starting veteran, and dump a bad contract in the process -- I'm all for it. Their eye for talent and getting it at the right price, speaks for itself. We didn't get Lewis cause we already had Pippen. We got a franchise player in Francis for very little in hindsight and still hung on to Mobley. We only have one year left on Rice's mistake whereas the Knicks got burned with Anderson's contract. C'mon -- these guys are the best in the business. That said, if they like Ming -- with a starting lineup of Francis, Mobley, Griffin, Taylor and Ming -- Rice, Norris, Cato and Thomas off the bench -- I can see us making some serious noise next year
<i>They are all stupid ideas for Garnett. I meant you can split the fodder between two teams in a 3-way, that it doesn't get dumped on one team, and yes, I meant irrelevant fodder as in Pippen trade type fodder, Cato/Walt/Rogers/etc. where it is Cato/Rice/etc this time. The blockbuster people, they are not.</i> HP, Yes it could be a 3 way deal, but it still doesn't make sense. The only difference is that a different team gets screwed. Yeah, you could throw in players on one or more sides to possibly make the salaries work, but you've still got the exact same problem and the one that I mentioned. It's the same two scenarios: 1) If we take Garnett, then we need to ship off $19+M in salary. If we don't trade our core players, then somebody is going to have to absorb alot of bad contracts. None of those 3 teams have cap space, so that salary has to go somewhere. Minnesota would still have to take on the extras. Is it really a better situation for the TWolves to get rid of BOTH Wally and Garnett, just to end up with Malone for a year and and extra $5M to $6M in bad contracts for a couple of years? Then they would be awful and wouldn't get to reap the rewards of a high draft pick (since they've lost theirs). Even if they could free up cap space, nobody in their right mind would go play there if they have Jay Williams and zero other talent left and no draft picks. From a Utah point of view, if they trade Malone, then they have to take back between $14.87M to $20.1M in return. If all they're getting back is Wally and some bad contracts, then that is an incredibly bad deal for them. I realize that Wally would be an asset in Utah, but not for $14M! 2) If we then include players to make the deal desirable and to get to $19M+, we still have to gut the team. It's the same exact result, we lose most of our core and end up with Francis and Garnett. Does it really matter where those guys end up once we trade them. Again, show me a deal for Garnett that involves the Rockets and even remotely makes sense for all parties involved.
