The list of horrors was not to tie them to a government imbued with the love God, but to show that things weren't actually better when prayer was in schools. The jist of one of your arguments was that things were better when there was prayer in school. That prompted the list of horrors and injustices that were going on back when prayer was allowed in public school. That list was often systematic and legislated injustice, not just a random school shooting every now and then.
And my point was that that same government which "allowed" or even encouraged prayer in schools systematically brought most of those horrors to an end. Why do you give the government more credit for causing rather than relieving the problem?
this story is dedicated to giddyup http://rawstory.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=127 Student expelled for being gay Three weeks ago an 18-year-old honor student at Trinity Christian Academy was cruising toward graduation. He had already been accepted to a prestigious university, and the final months of high school seemed a mere formality. He was a varsity athlete and a winner of service and citizenship awards at the fundamentalist private school in Addison. He was active in the school theater, was a yearbook editor and helped younger students with Bible study. Trinity Christian was his second family, the student said, and by every indication he was one of the school’s favorite sons. But when the school’s top administrators learned that the student had created a Web site where teens chat about homosexuality, he said they gave him a choice: either leave quietly or face expulsion for “immoral behavior,” which is prohibited by the school’s code of conduct. In a matter of days, the student, who is gay, went from prized student to sinner outcast. Today, the student attends high school in Plano, and students, teachers and administrators at Trinity Christian are left debating whether forcing the withdrawal of a popular lifelong student was the “Christian” thing to do. The case also shines a light on the moral culture clash with which private fundamentalist schools are increasingly wrestling. “I feel completely violated,” said the student, who had attended Trinity Christian since kindergarten. “The big lesson here for me is that you can’t really trust anybody. That, and I should have kept my mouth shut.” Initially, the student, who is legally an adult, gave The News an on-the-record interview regarding the case. Later, after telling his parents about the interview, he asked that The News not publish his name. The student’s parents declined to comment. Trinity Christian administrators would not talk specifically about the case. Headmaster David Delph issued a general statement about the school’s discipline policy. “As a community of Christian families we also believe the Bible provides insight to help us discern God’s desire for our conduct,” the statement reads in part. “Therefore we demand high Biblical standards of behavior from our students both academically and socially. Our families are asked to embrace these standards of conduct by signing a covenant with the school when students are admitted. Within this framework of Biblical standards and academic rigor, an atmosphere of enhanced learning, character development, and love are allowed to flourish.” John Craig, regional director for the Association of Christian Schools International, said honor codes at Christian schools play a critical role in establishing a school’s culture. “A school has the right and responsibility to fulfill its mission, and that may involve rules that not everybody is going to agree with,” said Mr. Craig, who is based in Dallas. “But the honor code makes it clear so there can be no misunderstanding: Here’s who we are, here’s what we’re about, and here’s what we’re trying to accomplish with our students.” Legally there is no middle ground: As a private religious school, Trinity Christian was well within its rights to force the student’s withdrawal, said Brian Chase, a lawyer with the Dallas office of the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund, which advocates for gay rights. Also, Texas has no law prohibiting discrimination against someone based on sexual orientation. But simmering under the surface are questions about forgiveness, compassion and redemption. “This is the problem that many Christian schools are bumping into today, more so than ever, because our culture is changing,” said Dr. John McCart, president the Texas Organization of Christian Schools. “If schools don’t know exactly what their position is, they’re hung.” Those who work with gay teens say the expulsion of gay students from private fundamental school is quite common. “I’ve heard of kids being outed in chapel in front of the whole school,” said Marc Adams, who runs a Seattle-based group called Heartstrong that counsels gay students attending religious schools. “It happens all the time. It’s just that so few people come forward to talk about it.” Since its creation in 1996, Heartstrong has counseled 831 students whose sexual orientation got them kicked out of their religious schools, Mr. Adams said.
anyone surprised that this happened in DFW?? The BELT BUCKLE of the Bible-Belt, more churches per squaremile than ANYWHERE in the world... It's sad that Christianity is being defined by "fundamental" religious zealots like this Trinity school, it paints those of us who aren't this slanted with the same brush...YES, the school was within it's "right" to expel this student based on their "covenant". On a side note, that word is being washed out and far to overused--all I can think of now is HALO! hehehe
Amazing isn't Max? I certainly hope, for their immortal souls, that all of the other law and commandments from the Lord's first covenant(there it is again)with the Israelites are being STRICTLY and MORALLY observed. You know, all the JUICY ones outlined in Leviticus... Sure hope none of the male teachers or administrators have been trimming their beards, we might need to bypass the courts and stone them to death ourselves!! And let's not forget the IMPORTANT laws like the combining of dairy and meat products in your meal; they better lay-off the cheeseburgers if they don't want to ROAST in hell! hehehehe
Some take the bible For what it's worth When it says that the meek Shall inherit the Earth Well, I heard that some sheik Has bought New Jersey last week 'N you suckers ain't gettin' nothin' ... Those Jesus Freaks Well, they're friendly but The **** they believe Has got their minds all shut An' they don't even care When the church takes a cut Ain't it bleak when you got so much nothin' (So whaddya do? Hey!) Eat that pork Eat that ham Laugh till ya choke On Billy Graham Moses, Aaron 'n Abraham . . . They're all a waste of time 'N it's your ass that's on the line (IT'S YOUR ASS THAT'S ON THE LINE) Frank Zappa The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing
Rashmon -- i find it sad that someone writes a song like that...because it just goes to show how far the church has gotten from Christ's teachings if that is the perception of it in the world.
"A heckuva lot"... Is that enough to pick chicken over steak? Is that enough to discipline your child? Is that enough to quit your job? Is that enough to change your beliefs? Is that enough to change public policy? Is that enough to change the Constitution? Is that enough to start a war? Is that enough to enslave humans? You are putting a lot of trust in your intuition. As I illustrated before, the common sense of a typical slave holder was that slavery was OK. The "smell test" can absolutely produce animalistic and criminal results. It can also produce great results. THAT IS WHY YOU SHOULDN'T USE IT for such important things. There is no method to it whatsoever and it is not based in fact and information. Therefore it will always produce inconsistent results. You just admitted that "The Smell Test does not allow for the concoction of some kind of rational justification for a decision or an action." I AM BEGGING YOU TO BE RATIONAL! You should try it some time when you post such wildly unsupported positions. Your initial post in this thread could be considered "random and kneejerk" at best. Why don't you try to PROVE some of it. Give me some information please. In the process of digging it up, you might realize the absurdity of the thread. My nose tells me that blue cheese is bad, but I know better. Maybe your thread is a bunch of blue cheese.
There are a lot of ethical codes, moral codes, and value systems in this world other than a Christian code. Since the overall theme of your thread was about a loss of morals, how did you choose Christianity to inject into publicly funded school system that serves the most diverse population on Earth? You could have chosen any to enforce? Golden Rule Noble Eightfold Path Ten Commandments Ten Indian Commandments Judicial Morality
Originally posted by Doctor Robert "A heckuva lot"... Is that enough to pick chicken over steak? Is that enough to discipline your child? Is that enough to quit your job? Is that enough to change your beliefs? Is that enough to change public policy? Is that enough to change the Constitution? Is that enough to start a war? Is that enough to enslave humans? <bSince when is Common Sense irrational? Those are individual decisions. Some version of the collaboration of those individual decisions results in both moral and legal codes.</b> You are putting a lot of trust in your intuition. As I illustrated before, the common sense of a typical slave holder was that slavery was OK. The "smell test" can absolutely produce animalistic and criminal results. It can also produce great results. THAT IS WHY YOU SHOULDN'T USE IT for such important things. There is no method to it whatsoever and it is not based in fact and information. Therefore it will always produce inconsistent results. <b>I would assert that the slave-holders were in some measure ignoring The Smell Test not using it to affirm their choices. In spite of your attempts to besmirch me, my common sense is an enlightened one. In past centuries it wasn't so clear. I disagree that the smell test not based on fact and information. You're trying to connect it too much to an animal brain. It's just a figure of expression supporting realism; it describes how easy it is to out-think yourself. The common sense of the typical abolitionist was that slavery was an insult to people and to the nation. Where do you go now with your anti-common sense argument?</b> You just admitted that "The Smell Test does not allow for the concoction of some kind of rational justification for a decision or an action." I AM BEGGING YOU TO BE RATIONAL! You should try it some time when you post such wildly unsupported positions. Your initial post in this thread could be considered "random and kneejerk" at best. Why don't you try to PROVE some of it. Give me some information please. In the process of digging it up, you might realize the absurdity of the thread. <b>The key word was "concoction." As stated earlier The Smell Test is a pragmatic rationality. The thread is not random (aren't you the one who described it as a timeline?). Why is it kneejerk? Because you disagree with it; these positions have been argued for more than a decade. I'm trying to provide something to discuss. If all you want to do is insult me... well, better just to stay out of it. I'm not interested in writing books that have already been written-- on both sides of the argument I'm sure. I'd be interested in knowing how some of this result of expelling God from schools have made schools better. Is there a single measure in which schools are better? Safety? No. Graduation rates? No. Excellence? No. Quality of teaching staff? No. Help me here!</b> My nose tells me that blue cheese is bad, but I know better. Maybe your thread is a bunch of blue cheese. <b>Exceptions reinforce rules sometimes.. or have you not read up on that!</b>
You want me to listen to you because "your common sense is an enlightened one" rather than listen to you because you are presenting me with information and an coherent arguement? You think that the complete absence of any FACTS in your thread is OUT-THINKING? I would call it intellectually lazy. Humanity has never been advanced by lazy thinking. Try aiming a little higher and actually look into these issues on sociological, psychological, political, and theological levels. That might gain my respect, but until then I refuse to even enter the debate. I can't even get you to admit THINKING is a good thing. I'm just calling you on your unsupported BS. If you find that embarassing, then stop responding. ALL THESE BOOKS HAVE ALREADY BEEN WRITTEN. You need to go to the library and read them. You aren't breaking new ground here. First of all, you haven't given any evidence whatsoever (only correlations) that any of these issues are caused by the separation of church and state as it applies to our publicly funded school system. Secondly, I don't believe that they are. Therefore, using your loose correlation = causation smell test, I would say that the separation of church and state is good for public schools. I present the following historical statistics on illiteracy rates (Percentage of persons 14 years old and over who were illiterate - unable to read or write in any language) from the National Center for Education Statistics: http://nces.ed.gov/naal/historicaldata/illiteracy.asp 1870-20.0% 1880-17.0% 1890-13.3% 1900-10.7% 1910-7.7% 1920-6.0% 1930-4.3% 1940-2.9% 1947-2.7% 1950-3.2% 1952-2.5% 1959-2.2% 1969-1.0% 1979-0.6% Another added benefit of keeping religion out of schools, is that my children will be able to go to attend and learn about mathematics, literature, language, science, and history without being forced to believe in God. They won't be looked upon negatively by their piers because they believe in morality, ethics, and the technological development of the human race rather than The Ten Commandments and the Bible. Also, they will have friends from all over the world, and they will learn to appreciate them and their cultures without the caveat that they may all be damned for eternity. Yeah, maybe slavery wasn't so bad. The Bible said it, so maybe that is an exception, just like the blue cheese. My common sense tells me that slavery was bad, but how do I go about figuring out if it really is or not? I do it by thinking.
There is nothing wrong with Christianity, but you believe Christopher Columbus was somehow more legit than the Native Americans who lived here before he arrived and the 25% of adult Americans who live here now that are not Christians?
You know it got religiously diverse while being a Judeo-Christian nation. Do you think that the non-Christians just got here?!
So it's a who got here first argument? See above post for what I think of that. You can also talk to the Israelis and Palestinians about the benefits of that logic.
