I highly doubt Thomas Jefferson would lay the blame on lack of religion in schools. Something about that guy, he just gives me that impression.
I'm not sure what you are trying to tell me here. From Dictionary.com: cor·re·la·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kôr-lshn, kr-) n. A causal, complementary, parallel, or reciprocal relationship, especially a structural, functional, or qualitative correspondence between two comparable entities: a correlation between drug abuse and crime.
"Imaginary Love" Every kind of love Or at least my kind of love Must be an imaginary love to start with Guess that can explain the rain waiting walking game Schubert bust my brain to start with Cause every kind of love Or at least my kind of love Must be an imaginary love to start with Guess that can explain the rain waiting walking game Schubert bust my brain to start with Oh, to look at you In a cab Back of your head across my lap Oh, what grace Green back seat against the red of your face Oh, to look at you Any old grand hotel Drunken demands give way to reservations Oh, what a room Champagne brings such happy faces Happy faces Cause every kind of love Or at least my kind of love Must be an imaginary love to start with Guess that can explain the rain waiting walking game Schubert bust my brain to start with Cause every kind of love Or at least my kind of love Must be an imaginary love to start with, baby Guess that can explain the rain waiting walking game Schubert bust my brain to start with Oh, oh...
To be fair, there is a much stronger correlation between prohibition and crime than drug use and crime. I know that was an issue in the dictionary, but thought I would point it out.
The Constitution would not be reviled as spam because not enough people would be interested in forwarding it to all their friends. These idiotic chain emails that you send around and/or post here are generally not based in fact, make HUGE leaps to try to connect things, and are designed to demonize the left rather than starting any meaningful dialogue. THAT is why we discount this crap, not just because it is contained in a forwarded email.
What are the facts in this email that are in question? My point is the idiotic point that some of you constantly pull to your side that wants to devalue something just because it came via email. That is just ludicrous. Everything written, no matter its origin, contains ideas which can be discussed, dissected, destroyed, or delighted in. Why some of these ideas are so threatening is beyond me.... It may just be a PC police cousin.
I broke down each and every point and my discussion has not been refuted, so I would argue that ALL of the "facts" in that email are in question. Which is the reason that I discussed every single point brought up in my initial post.
If you read my post, I didn't devalue your thread because it came from an e-mail. I devauled it because it doesn't use any logic whatsoever to create a link between two wholly unrelated events - school shootings and religion in school. There's absolutely zero evidence that "removing God from school" (which is quite untrue, by the way, since students are still free to pray, just not school-led prayer) had something to do with the school shootings, but the e-mail you posted is insinuating that. It's a shoddy premise for a thread.
Originally posted by andymoon Dear Concerned Student: I have a grand plan that, though you may not understand it, is what is best for the world. Sincerely, God <b>So lay down and just accept whatever happens in this old world. I always understood that God helps those who help themselves.</b> Of course, we REALLY said OK when the founding fathers put that pesky freedom of religion clause in the Bill of Rights. THOSE BASTARDS!!! <b>Then why does the US Senate open each session with a prayer. THOSE BASTARDS!!! A disgruntled parent can get an activist judge to make a ruling against prayer in school, but the actual lawmakers abide it. This is your refutation?!</b> And most of us that are pro-choice do NOT believe that minors should be able to get an abortion without their parent's knowledge, but that little fact just doesn't fit in with the twisted worldview that the author of this idiotic rambling has. <b>What does the law allow?</b> And, when you look at the statistics, in areas where condoms are given away, teen pregnancy has dropped as have rates of STD infections. I guess you would rather that the girls they impregnate get abortions and that when they have sex (WHEN, not IF) they have an elevated risk of contracting STDs. <b>When not if? How hopeless is that? I deliberately made it through high school without having sex...</b> Well, as long as the president is doing his job, I don't think his sexual activity, former drug use, or favorite music has any bearing. I am much more concerned with organizations that attack the personal behavior of one president while ignoring actual crimes committed by White House personnel. <b>andymoon: Crime Dog. Where are the warrants?</b> The entertainment industry has definitely exposed our children to these things, but I would argue that the increase in violence in our society is due to other things like the militarization of our police forces over the past thirty years along with the increase in the amount of violence these forces are allowed to use in pursuit of "criminals." <b>Ever seen those comparative lists of the top school-related infractions between 1950 and 1990 or so? Chewing bubble gum is not even on the 1990 list... Are you really trying to say that the "militarization" of our police force has brought about the current kind of disruptiveness that we see in our schools today? Cart before the horse.</b> The exceedingly small percentage of kids who "don't know right from wrong" and do things to hurt others have not been raised properly, but I don't believe it is possible to make the case that this is due to the removal of religion from our schools. It has many causes and religion may be a contributing factor, but religious people do some pretty horrible things as well. <b>So you "do not believe" and that is supposed to be a refutation. The fact is that since God has been taken out of the schools in any kind of formal way, school culture has gone downhill fast. Yes, there are other factors contributing, but this is a fact and cannot be dismissed as irrelevant.</b>
You tried to devalue the message because it used correlation instead of causality. I found that correlation involves a link with causality. I'm not applying the scientific method here--- just the smell test.
giddyup, what exactly do you want? Please realize that not everyone is the same religion as you, and even those who are aren't comfortable with your ideas. That's the crux of the issue. Not everyone has the same ideas of God and some great religions don't even have a god. You can see the problems that it creates. My mom remembers when God was "still in schools." They had a church time at her public school when she was a kid. She said Preachers would come to her school and basically bash Catholics. So as a high school teacher herself, and a die-hard catholic, she is not to enthused with the "God in school" idea. She has experienced the negative effects of that first hand. Personally, I would like meditation and chanting of the Pali Canon in schools to fit my religion. How would you feel about that? "In Buddha we Trust"
Homer: "Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm." Lisa: "That's specious reasoning, Dad." Homer: "Thank you, dear." Lisa: "By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away." Homer: "Oh, how does it work?" Lisa: "It doesn't work." Homer: "Uh-huh." Lisa: "It's just a stupid rock." Homer: "Uh-huh." Lisa: "But I don't see any tigers around, do you?" Homer: "Lisa, I want to buy your rock."
I consider myself a Christian and I consider that email f-ing ridiculous. Abortion leading to child shootings? Not to be a sicko, but if there had been a few more abortions, then those little fetuses wouldnt have grown up to shoot other little grown up fetuses. Yes, I know that's a disturbing thing to post, but I found the original email just as disturbing.
how many shootings occured before it was removed? how many have occured since? i think we will see a massive increase in the latter.
The post asked why these things happen. Bad things happen in this world and if you ask God why, the only reason I have ever been given by any sort of religious or spiritual figure is that God's grand plan takes precedence over everything. Of course he does, but what help would there have been for the children cited? Are you really of the opinion that if we had (Christian) prayer in school that these sorts of things wouldn't have happened? Because politicians cannot afford to even give the appearance of being anti-religion. The religious lobby is so strong that any Senator that suggested a change in that protocol would be run out of town on a cross. The judges are doing what you think is right. You may see them as "activist judges," but it does not take an activist to see that many of the practices that have been banned by judges in recent years clearly cross the line with regards to separation of church and state. There are certainly exceptions, but most of these judges (IMO) do not have an agenda, they have a job to do. Depends on the state, depends on the locality. Everyplace is different. State's rights and all. What you see as hopeless, I see as reality. In the totality of human existance, people have had sex starting in adolescence. They will continue to no matter how much religion we throw at them. It behooves us to assure that teen pregnancy rates, abortion rates, and rates of STD infection are as low as possible. That necessitates a prevention (not sex prevention, prevention of pregnancy and STD infections) methodology that includes more than "sex is bad, mmmmkay." EXACTLY. You set out with that as a goal in your life and were able to accomplish it. Congratulations. Not everyone is like you. In fact, you are a major aberration in that respect. Again, we need a way to impact the problems we are having with regards to teen sexual activity, but "abstinance only" programs simply do not work. I am really tired of people talking about the "messages" that our policies (or potential policies) send. Politicians (and parents, and preachers)want our policies to send the right "message" even when the policy difinitively does not work. Exactly. Where in he!! are the warrants? The GOP was able to get a president impeached over perjury. Why have they been totally unable to find out who leaked the name of an active CIA agent when the person who did it is directly under their control? And a big part of that is what we have exposed our kids to. I'm not talking about rock-n-roll or lack of religion in the classroom. We have exposed our kids to ever increasing violence (real violence, not the fake stuff on NYPD Blue) and we have increased the access to and visibility of drugs. We have turned our police forces into attack dogs at war with the very people they are supposed to police. I actually do believe that prohibition is one of the biggest things wrong with our kids today. Kids have more time on their hands these days (since Mom is forced to work since a second paycheck is necessary for most households, something that was VERY uncommon in the 1950s) and they have ready access to drugs along with peers who encourage their use. In addition, one of the most lucrative jobs a kid can hold these days is that of a drug dealer. Movies, film, and music are a reflection of the times. They do not CAUSE violence, sexual activity, and other aberrant behavior, they simply relect what already happens in the world. By the same token, school culture has "gone down" at about the same rate that Moms have had to go to work and by the increase in the militarization of the police force. These are, IMO, FAR more relevant facts that go much further in explaining why our kids are more violent and less respectful these days. BTW, I said that I did not believe that it was possible to make the case that our schools' deevolution (sp?) was due to God being removed from the classroom. The author of this piece did not convince me that his train of thought was logical and neither have you.
The smell test is not an adequate method for any of the following things: 1) Writing Laws 2) Writing Constitutions 3) Forming Political Policy 4) Determing Federal, State, and Local Educational Standards The smell test has a bad reputation when it comes to these kinds of things. It is responsible for most of the horrible crimes that have been committed through history, and you should be ASHAMED for even admitting that in this thread. Our world has an ENORMOUS amount of information, research, and knowledge available to every free person in this country. You obviously have access to a very large portion of this knowledge because you have access to the internet. I would also assume that you have access to a public library, a bookstore, online book retailers, and the ability to attend any of the fine higher educational institutions that people from all over the world travel to the US to attend. - AND YOU DON'T CARE TO ACCESS ANY OF IT. Once again, you should be ASHAMED for arguing such an absurd point of view and admitting that you are using the SMELL TEST to support it. You might as well admit that you are also lazy and misinformed and would rather insult everyone on this BBS by wasting our time reading this thread while awaiting a reasonable or educated response from its' originator. AND, for you information correlation does not involve a link with causality.
How much technology in the home has increased since publich school was abolished? I think we see a massive increase... But I don't think one thing has to do with another, just like I don't think the shootings happened because school prayer went out the window. Both things happened, but I believe the influence was things like poor parenting, chemical imbalance, stress, etc.
