Out God We Thrust

<b>Stats posted:

Therefore, using your loose correlation = causation smell test, I would say that the separation of church and state is good for public schools. I present the following historical statistics on illiteracy rates (Percentage of persons 14 years old and over who were illiterate - unable to read or write in any language) from the National Center for Education Statistics:

http://nces.ed.gov/naal/historicaldata/illiteracy.asp
1870-20.0%
1880-17.0%
1890-13.3%
1900-10.7%
1910-7.7%
1920-6.0%
1930-4.3%
1940-2.9%
1947-2.7%
1950-3.2%
1952-2.5%
1959-2.2%
1969-1.0%
1979-0.6%</b>

I don't know the exact date of prayer being banned in public schools, but I believe that it was in the 60's sometime.

Therefore with prayer in public schools illiteracy fell from some 20% to 1%. That's 19 percentage points.

Without prayer in public schools it "continued to plummet" by another .06 (that is six hundredths of a single percentage point).

Which is better: a drop of 19 percentage points (with God in schools) or a drop of .06 percentage points (without God in schools)?

What do you figure the illiteracy rates to be since 1979? Better or worse? If I were a betting man, I would go with worse....

 

Of course my thinking is more for the latter (spiritual) kind of role.

Of course that belongs at home too, but don't you have to ask yourself what we can expect to happen when the guiding ethos at home is disallowed when we get to school?

These kids need the same kind of structure, order, and consistency when they get to school that they get or should be getting at home, but the same environment is nowhere to be found and is, in fact, disallowed.

 

Please explain. If you are going to say something, SAY SOMETHING! You hide behind these incredible understatements and snicker.

 

Originally posted by Doctor Robert

That was rimbaud in the other post, not me.

<b>?</b>

The date was 1963 for the O'hare trial. The literacy statistics just show that there is no apparent correlation between God in schools and the overall effectiveness of schools for their primary purpose (literacy). Despite the social upheaval of the 60's, there was no drop in the literacy rate.

<b>I thought the statistics proved that there was a greater (or at least an undiminished) increase in literacy during the many decades that we enjoyed "God in school."

You literacy stats were achieved testing 14 YOS. They were not really part of the social upheaval of the 1960s if they were tested in 1969. I was 15 that year; I know.

My literacy was well established before then.</b>


I mentioned before that over the course of the last 50 years, the statistics show that the role of religion in people's lives has not diminished. Once way or another, just as many people believe in God and go to church today that did 50 years ago.

<b>I never disputed that and I don't doubt it. My complaint is about God being removed from the fabric of our school-- not the syllabus.</b>

So to answer the question about what we can expect to happen when the guiding ethos at home is disallowed when we get to public schools: I say that based on the previous evidence, those children grow up to be the exact same people that they would have otherwise. The lack of God in schools is not having any primary effect on the issue.

<b>Do we have any literacy figures beyond 1969? I looked a bit but couldn't find any.

Do you really think that schools are as safe, as postive, as constructive as they were before 1969?

I have had kids graduate from high school. I have friends with kids in high school. I know people who teach in high schools. That's not what they tell me....</b>

You could make an argument that kids have short memories and that they behave differently at home than they do at school. You could make the argument that the spritual presence in school somehow changes their behavior. I would argue that you could attain the same type of formality, discipline, and thoughtfulness in many other ways that would make everyone happy. It isn't necesarily a lack of religion... it could be a lack of school uniforms, it could be a lack of physical education, it could be a lack of nutrition, it could be a lack of compelling teachers.

<b>Maybe all those are contributing factors, but have uniforms, PE, vegetables, and compelling teachers been thrown out of public schools?</b>

------------------------------------

Just to go back for a moment, you use the word "disallow", but the point is not to disallow anyone, it is to allow everyone. That seems like a noble goal, and one that everyone must make personal sacrifices to achieve.... personal sacrifices being the key words. It is easy to say that I want to do everything I want and the system needs to bend and allow me to be 100% comfortable, despite everyone else in our society. "Society" implies a social contract that works for everyone to coexist, and that means everyone has to make certain compromises to get along. One part of society cannot stand up and say that they are exceptions because they were here first and therefore deserve special treatment.

<b>My use of the word disallow was referencing the right of the institution itself, not the people who attend.

My point further is that this was the nature of the institution from it's foundation up until the 1960s. It was not my demand that changed it; it was "your" demand that changed it.</b>

Not having God in school is definitely a sacrifice for some, but it is a sacrifice well worth having. And yes, that could have some impact on a particular individual, but it also has an impact on society. I think that I have shown that the logic in the Constitution, which protects everyone's religious rights is not having any ill effects on the practice of Christianity. It is certainly causing some discomfort (this thread as evidence), but everyone still practices it in the same numbers.

<b>My concern is the health of the public institution of the school. As MadMax has pointed out Christianity itself is beyond the reach of how it is treated by our public institutions. The issue is how are the institutions themselves surviving.</b>

 

Originally posted by rimbaud

Now my feelings are hurt. What is an incredible understatement in this context?

You haven't a clue because you didn't even respond to the statistics that I was talking about - the most recent ones doc had posted. To that point you had just brushed them aside.

<b>You said reply to DocRobert's stats. I did. If you meant a particular set of stats you should say so and then refrain from insulting somebody because they can't read your mind...</b>

In addition to doc's info about Americans feeling more religious, how about the fact that the US is the most religious industrialized country in the world? Within that, how about that it is the most evangelical country in the world? Yet crime is generally worse in the US. Should I, then, spread around an email suggesting something as stupid as christians cause gang violence?

<b>Is there any logical connection between Christian evangelism and gang violence?</b>

You say just at home isn't enough, so are you suggesting that Christians are too weak to be able to translate their religious and moral upbringing into a school environment where they will be surrounded my a majority of fellow christians? That doesn't seem nice.

<b>When Christianity is shut out of the school formally, does strength really matter? Kindergarteners get sent home for praying in the lunchroom...</b>

Oops. I shouldn't have responded. I apologize. Nevermind.

<b>Whatever.</b>

 

I didn't bring up the literacy issue. IT was brought up, I think, by DocRobert to disavow my point that schools were worse off than they were in years past by showing that literacy has been continually on the rise. That's fine but the only problem is that God was only ousted from public schools in 1963 so the literacy trend was well established and bound to be improving from the founding years of public education forward before the removal of God from public schools.

There is no data here past 1969. I have asserted that I would bet that the literacy figure have declined since 1969-- due in part to the relative decadence of our public schools.

 

Only problem is that I can easily imagine a correclation between God's dismissal from school and a growing decadence there while I cannot imagine a correlation between Christian evangelism and gang activity.

I was being sarcastic as hell.

 

Originally posted by rimbaud

Perhaps the fact that my post came immediately after Doc had posted his argument about four times with the stats repeated over and over should have clued you in that those were more important than ones brought up 176 pages ago.

<b>I responded thusly to Doc: "No you weren't. You had your own agenda as proven by your recent post above which asserted what was supposed to be my point which was not my point at all."

The piece I posted dealt only with decadence in public schools. Doc tried to drag it out into society in general. Neither the piece nor I were addressing that problem.

Obviously all of these problems are multi-faceted.</b>

First of all you ignored the general trends about the US being the most religious of all s. crime rates. Next, you are asking about logical connections? How about this:

Listen to gangsta rap from the late 80's to early 90's and you will hear all sorts of references to God, Jesus, praying, etc.. Go to impoverished Afgrican American areas (ghettos) and you will see huge numbers of protestant/evengelical churches filled with very religious people. Look at a lot of gangtas that wear crosses and have cross tatoos or bible verses, etc..

<b>Perversion of a faith-- nothing more. Are you telling me those are actually altar boys or something? Get real.</b>

Look at latino gangs that are very Catholic. You will see gang members with tatoos of Jesus or the Virgin Mary on their chests and arms, crucifixes around their necks, and the same kind of religious talk and praying as African Americans.

<b>Are these criminal gangs or what? If they are, then they are not imbued with the love of God and simply borrow the symbols to deflect criticism. It's a perversion of the faith.</b>

Look at the older Mafia and see all of the Catholic influence and the importance of priests in thos communities.

Look at the KKK (a different kind of gang, to be sure) and see all of the religious influence there.

<b>Absolutely true but combined barely a fraction of a single percent of society. What do you expect... perfection?!</b>

Almost all of these groups were generally raised in very to very strict religious environments. Why are they so violent?

<b>I'd start with ignorance and move quickly into psycho-pathology...</b>

That is silly. Religion is not shut out from schools, schools just can't promote it (although they sometimes do). I know I always saw religious shirts and symbols, Christian clubs, student-sponsored prayer meetings at the flagpole, and even Young Life counselors coming to the cafeteria (visitors were not allowed and it was supposed to be highly restrictive, but they either came in on their own or were allowed. I never asked. Besides, even if there was no allowance of overt Christianity, does that mean the kids just forget everything they are taught all of their lives? Again, the majority of their classmates just about anywhere in the US will be christian.

<b>It sounds like you are talking about the past. What is the present like and, more importantly, the future? The trend is very obvious.

I know you think I'm some religious fanatic. I'm not. I am a cultural Christian. I hardly ever read the Bible. I specialize in minor sins. Half the time when I'm in church I'm wondering why I'm there... but then I look around and see a roomful of industrious, striving, imperfect people who are trying to live their life honorably while minimizing selfish concerns and I remember what brought me there.</b>

 

Originally posted by rimbaud

Schools exist within societies, do they not? He was asking why one would not relate to the other. You never responded, so that was why I brought up what I did. You have sinced tried to respond but you have yet to argue why society would not have an effect on schools within society.

<b>I believe that I have dealt with this repeatedly. BTW, screw Beltran. God is not allowed to exist institutionally in schools. That's the important thing. Having Christians kids walking the halls cannot change the nature of the way the institution is allowed to operate.</b>

Further, you ignored my argument about the US being the most religious, most evangelical, etc., yet having more problems. Schools exist within this context, and a very high majority of American schools are run by Christians, filled with Christian teachers, and attended by Christian students. So I guess Christians are the problem?

<b>Again, it is the institutional identity which is at issue. Is that majority anywhere near unanimity? No. So your point is spurious.</b>

I love your "get real" comments. Sorry I live in fantasy land. You missed the point, obviously (and again). You actually think I am arguing what I said was stupid. I was making a point. Remember in the post where I mentioned how it would be stupid for me to make the association of Christianity with gangs? I continued to show that there are connections of some sort. I can point to facts (just as the email pointed to events in history) and make a claim that they are connected, when there is no proof one way or the other. As I said, that is stupid and pointless.

<b>I know that you were doing but your analog was outrageous. My "get real" challenge was to find a better and remotely convincing analogy.

God in schools is not out of the blue; it has a 100+ year history-- an era that saw this nation become the most dominant nation in the history of the world in just about every way: artistically, militarily, scientifically, et al.

Something has changed. I know what one of those things was and I believe it has something to do with the problems our schools face.</b>

Also, though, it could illustrate that people can be Christians and still be violent or do bad things. You may not believe they are true Christians, but they would I dentify themselves as such and you cannot go around and decided who is really Christian and who is not.

<b>Yes I can and so can you. What does the Bible say: ~ "By their fruits they shall be known..." You believe their posturing; I don't. We both have a right to make that judgement. If you weren't arguing this point with me, I doubt you would conclude that on the evidence available...</b>

Where is the ignorance and psychopathology in your email. It only charts the "removal" of God.

<b>I'm not sure what this means. I was trying to suggest that the "motivation" behind the "exceptions" (KKK, Mafia, et al) was ignorance, greed, and psych-pathology while you claim it was the love of Christ. I'll stick with my supposition, thank you. The Mafia used the church just like the used real business fronts to mask themselves.</b>

I related personal experience from not that long ago and from schools (that I attended) that you would see as part of the "decadent" (I would argue against that choice of words) problem. I also have about 950 nieces and nephews in elementary-college and have been to some of their schools and heard their stories of school life. So I have an idea how things are. Seem similar to me. Again, though, your problem seems to be with Christians.

<b>Did you have a school resource officer as a lad?</b>


There I go again, "discussing" stuff with you. I am a weak fool. I repent. Bring me my hair shirt.

<b>Ah, done waiting for the other shoe to fall...</b>

 

BTW, that was a legal matter not an educational matter, wasn't it?

Nothing has ever been perfect...