Sheer brilliance! Not only did you use one Simpsons reference, but you used TWO!! You are my bbs hero, mr. surrender! Somehow, I got the feeling as I read through this thread that it reminded a whole lot of one on Ted Nugent....
I agree completely, and I prefer my own conscience and reasoning. In the absence of reasoning, I defer to laws and rules.
I'm not just itching for a lot of religion in public schools... BUT... ...it bugs me that a teacher can give the entire history of Kwanzaa or the meaning behind Ramadan, but if they even mention the nativity, there's going to be a Congressional hearing. Get real. Allow everybody or nobody. Case in point, I was talking with a Jewish gentleman earlier this week. He stated that he is deeply concerned about how Christianity is being treated in the public arena. When asked why, he succinctly stated that "if Christians are able to practice and celebrate their faith in the public eye, then I can practice mine without fear." He then went on to lament that this is no longer the America he grew up in. He misses the Christmas pageants put on by schools and such. He states that it reminds him that this country is no longer religiously tolerant. It has become intolerant of the faith of the majority. I thought that was an interesting analysis.
This is essentially all the Constitution has to say about religion (and the phrase 'separation of church and state appears nowhere in the Constitution): "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" Do you really think that is "VERY clear"? Where in that phrase is it "VERY clear" that a teacher in a public school cannot teach that Jesus Christ is the son of God? At face value the first amendment simply states that there will not be a "National" religion and that folks are free to exercise the religion of their choosing. Nowhere does it say that it is illegal to (for example) exhibit a Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist article on public property.
Lack of religion is a cop-out for all social ills. No one wants to investigate what the real sources of problems are because it is likely the finger will be pointing right back at themselves. -------------------------------- It is typical of people to blame other people for society's problems: "Here again, when members of the public voice their distress about family breakdown, they are almost always referring to other people's families, not their own. In a 1997 Mother's Day survey, the Pew Research Center found that 93 percent of mothers with kids under 18 felt their children were a source of happiness all or most of the time; 90 percent said their marriage made them happy all or most of the time; and just 2 percent of moms reported being dissatisfied with the job they were doing rearing their children." "In their own lives, three out of four adults don't find it difficult to meet their commitments to their families, kids, and employers-even though 90 percent also believe that a "major problem with society" is that people don't live up to their commitments..." -------------------------------- The original post starts it's chronology at 1963 (year the US Supreme Court ruled 8-1 banning school prayer). Here is the paradox of people's opinions on 60's ideology: "The essential paradox is that while Americans believe today's moral breakdown was spawned by the permissiveness of the 1960s, they embrace, on a case-by-case basis, most of the liberties that were part of the 1960s revolution. When Americans are asked, as they were in a 1996 Wall Street Journal poll, what kind of impact various social movements have had on today's values, they almost invariably think they are beneficial. Roughly 80 percent of those surveyed by the Journal said that the civil rights movement, the environmental movement, and the women's movement all had a positive impact on people's values." -------------------------------- Everyone believes religion is losing ground in society, but statistics show that the role of religion in people's lives has not decreased: "Two-thirds of the electorate think that religion is losing its influence on American life. Yet 62 percent say that religion's influence is increasing in their own lives, according to a 1994 U.S. News & World Report poll." "In 1997, the Gallup poll replicated one of its surveys on Americans'religious practices from 1947. The fifty-year update found that the same percentage of Americans pray today (90 percent), believe in God (96 percent), and attend church once a week." "Roughly 60 percent of adults think that religion "can answer all or most of today's problems," and one in three view at least one religious TV show each week." -------------------------------- The Optimism Gap
I love right wing christian victimology and the silly fantasies like this they inspire. It makes me laugh.
Thanks, right back at you superstar. I could type a twelve volume tome correcting the misinformation and misperceptions on display from such informed scholars as yourself and it still wouldn't bring this dog into a positive net substance realm. But I won't, I'll just smugly note this and feel like your intellectual superior.
Once again, being petty and vindictive for your own ego-centric gratification. Thanks for proving my point, fish... BTW, how old are you?!? 12?
So does he or did we? And how would you know the difference? the wheels on the bus go round and round...
What about the Jewish man I was talking to this week? Is he a right wing Christian? Thanks for completely glossing over my point. What a clown.
Congress appropriates money for public schools. In that way, they are an extension of Congress (as well as other public agencies) and are barred from activities that even give the appearance of "establishing" a religion. For a few hundred years, it wasn't really that big a deal becuse virtually everyone was Christian. That has drastically changed in the last half century and as a result, the country will have to change as a result. It already has changed and you are arguing for its reinstatement on the "evidence" cited (but not in any way linked) in the original email. I guess that is where we differ. I DO find that phrase (or at least its intent) VERY clear. I guess you don't. Based on the case law over the past half century, that is exactly what it has come to mean. The country is changing with the times. You ought to think about doing just that.
So you think that I should change my views to coincide with folks that think there is no place for religion in public places? I see nothing wrong with (for example) rotating prayers from the 5 major religions at various public events. I see nothing wrong with a manger scene at Christmastime, a Jewish scene during Hanukkah, a Muslim scene during Ramadan, etc. on the city hall lawn. As a society, we are wasting opportunities to teach these different beliefs that lay the foundation for most law and morality throughout the world because of the "politically correct" few that want to prevent it. I believe I will not think about changing my views. It's sad that if we have 10,000 people of various religions at a sporting event on public property and they want to have prayers representing those religions and if there is one atheist, that person will "win" out over the other 9,999. What a shame....
I think this is a great quote by Jefferson, that applies not only to a supposed need for public prayer in shcools, but also for the need to try and create a constitutional amendment based on somebody's religious view on gay marriage. I am all for prayer and pray everyday. I don't feel a need for it to be done in a school, or anything like that. I can accept that others feel differently, and some would even be uncomfortable by prayer because the history of many Christians who have oppressed and coerced others.
I agree. However, the pledge of Allegiance isn't a prayer. A stone template of the Ten Commandments in front of a courthouse a prayer. People getting in a huff over these things are just whining for the sake of whining.
Yes, just as the onus would have been on you to change your thinking about discrimination, women's suffrage, or slavery if you were of the opinion that the old way of doing business on these issues was the right one. The separation between church and state has certainly widened in the last decade, but as this movement promotes more religious diversity, I see it as a good thing. You can keep fighting to reinstate a policy that has been found unconstitutional, but you might as well have fought for the continuation of discrimination or the denial of women to vote. YOU don't, but others DO! The logistics of what you propose are daunting even if some holidays didn't coincide with each other (Hanukkah and Christmas). Besides, if I want to see a manger scene at Xmas, I will go to a church. If I want to see a Jewish scene, I can go to a synogogue (sp?) and if I want to see a Muslim scene, I will go to a temple. Those things have their place, but it is definitively NOT on the city hall lawn. No, we are preventing people from using the authority they have (principals, mayors, whatever authority) to espouse their religious beliefs on the dime and on the premises of the taxpayers. These lessons you want to see taught ARE taught, they are taught in Sunday School and if you want your children to learn those lessons, take them to church. School (the city hall lawn, public rotundas, the steps of the courthouse, etc) is not the place to do it, particularly in an America where we are as diverse as we are becoming with respect to religion. That is certainly your perogative. If you are ONLY looking at Atheists, the percentage would be FAR higher than the .01% that one out of 10,000 represents. Keep in mind that your beliefs do not represent anywhere NEAR the 99.99% that you seem to think they do. In fact, looking at the 2000 census data (http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/03statab/pop.pdf), over 13% identified themselves with no religion at all. That would be 1300 of the people at your sporting event. It is not just "one athiest" that I am concerned about, it is the large numbers of people who you simply discount because they do not share your religious views.
Not to repeat myself... but I'll repeat myself. I thought I was addressing the original post with my last response. Maybe I wasn't? I think that the psychology of the views in the original post are pretty typical. People always think that we are losing our religion. Older people always think that kids are worse than the previous generation. It doesn't matter whether or not emperical evidence shows the opposite or not. It is a cop out that doesn't accomplish anything. You have to look deeper and get to the real root of the problems. It is headline syndrome. A few incidents grab headlines, and suddenly the public thinks isolated behavior is the norm. One person you know gets mugged, and suddenly the world is going to hell! ---------------------- School prayer, or no school prayer... it doesn't seem to effect our religious practices or views. Everyone believes religion is losing ground in society, but statistics show that the role of religion in people's lives has not decreased: "Two-thirds of the electorate think that religion is losing its influence on American life. Yet 62 percent say that religion's influence is increasing in their own lives, according to a 1994 U.S. News & World Report poll." "In 1997, the Gallup poll replicated one of its surveys on Americans'religious practices from 1947. The fifty-year update found that the same percentage of Americans pray today (90 percent), believe in God (96 percent), and attend church once a week." "Roughly 60 percent of adults think that religion "can answer all or most of today's problems," and one in three view at least one religious TV show each week." ---------------------- I think a lot of people feel threatened by how judges interpret the constitution, but there is nothing to fear. Clearly, those who choose to live a religious life are not being injured by these "headline" stories. If you choose to teach your children about religion, the message is coming through loud and clear.
