Our bullpen is overated

Who do you propose we get? We tried to get Finley, but he won't come out of retirement. They've informed teams that they're willing to add a little payroll and are looking at starting pitching only (as far as I've heard).

You act like we went out and traded starting pitching prospects for middle relief. We haven't. We're just fortunate enough to have a kickass bullpen-one that shut down the Rangers on Saturday after Robertson left in the 7th. They're a huge part of why we're still heavily in contention despite our horrible starting pitching and clutch hitting.

 

I agree with DaDakota. We won't go anywhere if we don't get any starting pitching. Even if Lidge, Dotel, and Wagner each pitch an inning, that's only 1/3 of the game. You need a starter to pitch well the first 6.
Plus, our bullpen is showing signs of wearing down the last week, and we're not even to the all-star break. Jimy Williams needs to start limiting Lidge, Dotel, and Wagner a little more so that they can make it through the whole season without wearing down. If we want to win the division, he is going to have to have to rely on some of the other relievers to pitch key innings.

 

I think everyone agrees with that.

 

Have you paid any attention to Jeriome Robertson lately? His last 8 starts or so have been very solid...certainly good enough for a #4 or #5 starter on a playoff team. A core of Oswalt, Miller, Redding and Robertson should be good enough. Our problem is not overall crappy starting pitching, but rather injuries to that starting pitching. If we had everyone healthy, it would be a different story.

And you never answered my question. Last night our bullpen lost the game while our starting pitching (Villone) did quite well. So how exactly does citing this game do anything to prove or even give credence to your argument in this thread?

 

How about Stone and Lidge?

How about our bullpen on Saturday?

 

How about Stone and Lidge?

How about our bullpen on Saturday?

Don't you understand? If a pitcher ever gives up a run, he sucks. All the other days are irrelevent.

We should only send out pitchers there who have ERAs of 0.00.

And of course, it's all Jimy's fault too.

 

Once again, if your contention is that our starting pitching needs bolstering, and that the bullpen is not as important, then why do you cite games where the starting pitching does well and the relief does poorly as evidence to support your stance? If we had a worse bullpen last night they would have somehow done better? It makes no sense.

 

Yeah, Hidalgo's been horrible.

 

Lemme make a DD-esque post:

What about last night...SHEESH.

Hidalgo's got more HRs than Kent and only 11 less RBI despite playing in less games and hitting in the 6th spot for most of the year. He's not a creampuff.

Looking at the stats, I'd say Berkman hasn't been much of a creampuff either.

Unfortunately, this year (as it's been in the Astros' past), we can't seem to put it all together at one time. For the vast majority of the year, we've had the best bullpen in the league. At times, we've had decent starting pitching and decent clutch hitting...just never at the same time.

Yet, we're still in first place.

 

Anyone who reads DD's posts in this thread should be able to tell that this guy knows almost zero about baseball. Why even bother?

 

Jumping in a little late here....

Dude Doggie is having a kick-a$$ season!!! .... Are you watching last years games or something?? After Kent, Hidalgo has been our most consistent and productive hitters bar none.

And as far as our bullpen being overrated..... WTF???

Tell me any other team that has a DEEPER bullpen than the 'stros?

 

DaDakota,

Go follow another team if you want to be this stupid.

You are just being a whiny brat, pulling the lamest of tactics to prove your stupid point in this thread. I have to ask, is this your kid posting for you in this thread, because this is one great tantrum you are throwing.

Where were you earlier in the year when this bullpen was on fire?

Where will you be when they get out of the slump and get back on track after they get their 2nd wind?

Baseball is a 162 game long season, and 12 game bad stretches happen to everyone. Especially to an overworked bullpen who needs some time to catch its 2nd wind.

And you are just as wrong on Hidalgo. The reason his RBI totals suck is he spent a month on the DL with that illness, remember.

It's amazing how you really spin things you only see what you want to see.

Finally, I admit the bullpen has struggled of late, but it doesn't change the fact they aren't overrated and that they are one of the top 5 in baseball, sorry to dissapoint you.

 

Badass post DVauthrin. No one could expect our awesome bullpen to keep up that pace for the entire year. The fact that they made it until June before hitting a bad spell is simply amazing due to our lack of quality pitching thus far.

However, I doubt DaDakota will even acknowledge that. Nor will he post tonight if our bullpen holds a lead. What tickles me is his argument.

So, he's back to the bullpen is overrated card.

First, they're overrated.

Then, when everyone points out how wrong he is, he jumps to the argument that the bullpen isn't overrated, just having a good bullpen when the rest of your team sucks is overrated.

Then he jumps in here when they blow a save.

Probably the most annoying poster here. I've always thought that the ignore list was for p*****s, but DaDakota's performance in this forum is really testing that theory.

 

When it rains, it pours......

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/1980902

THE 'PEN IS MIGHTIER
Addition of Lidge has Astros among NL's best

By JOSE DE JESUS ORTIZ
Copyright 2003 Houston Chronicle

Billy Wagner and Octavio Dotel expected the Astros' bullpen to be good, especially with Pete Munro and Ricky Stone returning after strong seasons last year. They only wondered about righthander Brad Lidge, who had impressed at every stop during his injury-plagued career.

Could he stay healthy? Could he transfer the success he had in the minors to the majors? After only 222 2/3 innings over five minor-league seasons?

With a wicked slider, a mid-90s fastball and a mound presence to match his 6-5, 210 frame, the 26-year-old Lidge has answered the call with authority. The Astros' top pick in the 1998 draft has made a good bullpen great, settling in nicely behind Wagner and Dotel to form one of the most menacing bullpens in all of baseball.

"I knew we obviously had two of the best relievers in baseball and a couple of guys that could do the job," Lidge said. "I guess I was thinking we'd have a good bullpen, not a great bullpen. Obviously at the beginning of the season, I was a question mark.

"I hadn't proved anything at this level. I had confidence I could do the job, but you have to show them and prove yourself. Obviously, we all knew Ricky Stone and Pete Munro can do the job."

At the halfway mark, the Astros' bullpen had an impressive 22-15 record with a 3.38 ERA and 26 saves over a National League-leading 295 2/3 innings.

Lidge, despite a span in which he gave up eight earned runs in 1 2/3 innings over two outings in late June, finished the first half with a 4-1 record and 2.83 ERA while pitching in 40 of the Astros' first 81 games. Dotel, who pitched in 41 games in the first half, was 6-3 with a 2.11 ERA.

Wagner, who also appeared in 41 games in the first half, was 1-3 with a 2.18 ERA and 22 saves at the halfway point. Stone was 4-2 with a 3.83 ERA and Munro was 3-3 with a 4.99 ERA. Munro's first-half ERA and record was skewed because he struggled in two spot starts in place of Roy Oswalt. He was 3-1 with a 3.18 ERA over 29 relief outings, but he was 0-2 as a starter while giving up 10 earned runs in 5 1/3 innings.

Righthanders Kirk Saarloos and Brandon Puffer and lefthander Nate Bland also provided the bullpen some innings in the first half.

"They've all contributed (in the bullpen) to help us win games, not just pitch innings but helping us win games," manager Jimy Williams said. "Lately, our starters have gone a little deeper. I don't think our overall average for our starters is real good yet, but hopefully we can build on that. We've had a couple of injury times when guys had to come out, and that didn't help."

The starting rotation must start pitching deeper into games if the Astros hope to have a bullpen in September. The biggest question in the second half will center on the ability of the bullpen to hold up to the workload.

Williams will try to solve that problem, but there is no doubt the Astros would be in serious trouble without the bullpen's performance this season.

"We'd be a lot further down the line than we are now, that's for sure," general manager Gerry Hunsicker said. "But that was one of the designed strengths of the club. I'm not surprised at the bullpen. But, having said that, there's still some soft spots out there. The problem is getting to those guys. You can't go to the same well every night. When your starter doesn't get you to the seventh inning that consistently, it strains the bullpen.

"The other guys in the bullpen haven't pitched as well as they could, so that puts more pressure on the big three. When you're talking about the bullpen, you talk about three. The other guys have been inconsistent like a lot of the other parts of the team."

Despite the injuries to the starting rotation and the inconsistencies of the starters and the offense, the bullpen has helped the Astros remain in games that otherwise would have been routs.

"We wouldn't even be talking about contending without the bullpen," Lance Berkman said. "The bullpen has really been magnificent. I knew we'd have a good bullpen coming in, but I didn't expect them to be as good as they've been, either."

Added Jeff Bagwell: "There's no question about it that we wouldn't be where we are right now without our bullpen. We've been lucky to stay in the race. If the game is close after six innings, we can stay in the game and find a way to win a game because they don't score off those guys. We have three innings basically to try to score a run or two. That's been a tremendous benefit for us."

After so much success early on in the season, Lidge wasn't accustomed to the failure he had while giving up those eight runs over 1 2/3 innings in late June.

"Now that everybody has confidence, the toughest thing is humility," Wagner said. "Because they've been good, they're not used to struggles. But when you struggle, the guy behind you picks you up. If I have a bad game, Dotel pumps me up. If Lidge has a bad game, we pick him up. (We) stick together and tell each other we're doing a good job."

Dotel has heard talk that the Los Angeles Dodgers and Chicago Cubs may have better bullpens, but he isn't buying it. Sitting out there every day, he views the Astros' bullpen as the best in the National League.

"I didn't imagine it would be like this," Dotel said. "I did think it would be good, but I didn't know it would be this good. I had a good year last season, Billy had a good year last season, and Stone had a good year last season. But I didn't know anything about Lidge. He has been a big key for us.

"There's a rumor that the Dodgers or Cubs have a better bullpen, but I don't think so. They have great bullpens, but we have the best."

And Dotel's teammates know where they'd be without the bullpen.

"Obviously, our bullpen has been our security," Craig Biggio said. "Without them, we're in some serious trouble."