Knee jerk reaction at its finest. Look at the extra inning games that we have played. One went to 16 innings, two went to 14, another to 12. I think the bullpen is doing fine keeping us in these games. If anything, the offense is to blame for the ****ty extra inning record.
Exactly. The bullpen pitched nearly an entire game in Chicago, it's not there fault the offense couldn't do crap.
Definitely not a Sox fan, just know they've had that rotating bullpen going on over there. Maybe they'd give us Hanley Ramirez and change for Wagner. Trade accepted.
look, the the 1 and 5 record you mentioned in extra innings isn't the fault of the bullpen rather the houston offense. We have had a game go to the 16th, the 15th and 12 or 11th i believe. Our bullpen has given the astros the opportunity to win but time and time again our hitters are unable to deliver other than Kent. The team is built around power, either hit a home run or strike out basically. Lidge, Dotel, Wagner - basically have 3 closers pitching the 7th, 8th and 9th. Doesn't get any better than that
We have 2 quality pitchers willing to go the distance, when healthy. Miller is a workhorse and can be as good as Kerry Wood. So out of 5 guys, we have 2 that can do complete games. 1 has recurring injury problems and is DLed right now - do you really want him pitching extra innings? The other is 5-7 with a 4.6 ERA - worse than Bland, Stone, Lidge, Dotel, and Wagner. Do you want him pitching complete games? You know when Munroe comes in, he's good for a run or two. Munro had 6 appearances in June and gave up 0 runs. He had 11 appearances in May and gave up 0 runs in 7 of those outings. Do facts even matter to people?
We have a front running bullpen, if we have to use anyone other then Lidge, Dotel, or Wagner, the bullpen caves....witness tonight. Game is close....well, not anymore....... By the way, does anyone else wish we would have kept Gonzo...he KILLS us....simply MURDERS us. DD
Bland should never be brought in during a close game. I agree with you that he's not all that. Saarloos and Stone have been pretty good though.
I just think that our bullpen is overated.....and let me clarify that. I don't think a bullpen is as important as good quality starters. Williams yanks them so quickly that they have no ability to work out of jams. I miss Dierker, I think his reasoning that the starters are his best pitchers so let them work out of trouble instilled confidence and made the bullpen more effective because it had less work. Im my mind Lidge and Dotel are redundant....you only need one setup man. Move Lidge to a starters spot...and let the FRICKEN starters pitch. I think Jimy Williams is not going to win here either. And yes, I realize our offense is WAY underperforming.... Where the hell is Kent...he can't play with a sore wrist....come on.... DD
Oh my God. Please go back and search every time you've suggested this. You've been told time and time again why it's not a good idea to start Lidge...
Williams yanks them so quickly that they have no ability to work out of jams. Yeah, like today. We should have let Redding stay out there and continue to get slaughtered. We have a front running bullpen, if we have to use anyone other then Lidge, Dotel, or Wagner, the bullpen caves....witness tonight. Yeah, sucks that we only have 3 studs in our bullpen. Name a bullpen better that ours. Name one that has an awesome #4 reliever. Never mind that Saarloos has a June ERA of 2.0 and Munro has a June ERA of 0.00. Our bullpen just sucks because they occasionally give up runs. TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE! WTF? Do people not even think before they post now?
Major, My point is that if you are relying on your bullpen, you are already behind. Relying on the bullpen is like the opposing team worrying about Michael Jordan's backup. STARTERS are the key...STARTERS.....and a closer......middle relief can be junk ball players with a change of pace..... Jimy manages wrong....you can't win that way.....middle releif is overated.....thus....the our bullpen is overated slant. As for Lidge....who cares if he has been hurt before.....is he a ball player or not...run him out there every 5th day to find out. Anyone can pitch middle relief...this team needs starters.....put your best players in the most important positions...is that so hard to understand? DD
My point is that if you are relying on your bullpen, you are already behind. That seems to be a problem with the offense or starters - the starters who you seem to want Jimy to keep running out there even more. Besides which, who cares if you get behind early - if you have a lights-out bullpen, that gives you 9 innings to score and your opponent only 6. That's why we win so many games late (the big bullpen guys being 17-8). Why mess up the one thing that's working on this team? Anyone can pitch middle relief...this team needs starters.....put your best players in the most important positions...is that so hard to understand? Lidge being able to pitch important innings 2 or 3 times every 5 days is more important than risking him pitching once every 5 days in a role that he may not be at all effective in. He doesn't have enough pitches, he hasn't ever managed to pile up innings without injuries, and he's effective because people only see him once. We shot up Elarton's arm with the bullpen-starter switch and Lidge is an injury-nightmare waiting to happen. Perhaps you understand little to nothing about managing people and their health - that's fine. Jimy is a bit smarter than that and recognizes that these aren't robots out there.
No one would argue with this. But you said our bullpen is overrated. You didn't mention any of this until now. While injuries has something to do with it, do you realize how hard it would be to turn him into a starter at this point in the year? For one thing, you've got durability issues, not to mention the fact that he doesn't have enough pitches to succeed as a starter. Then, if he doesn't work out as a starter, you risk damaging the psyche of one of the best bullpen pitchers in the MLB. There's no need to mess with a good thing. Of course, I'm just going to copy this onto a Word document so I can paste this the next time you bring up Lidge starting. So, you'd be in favor of starting both Dotel and Lidge? I mean, they're just middle relievers, they don't mean anything.
RM95, Yep, I would not mind running Dotel or Lidge out there as a starter..... The biggest problem I have is that the Astros are a mediocre team because our owner will not pay top dollar to a pitcher..and we lose quality starter after quality starter. Think about it, when was the last time we had a legitimate STAR number 1 pitcher? We rented Randy Johnson for half a year....and before that, who? We let Kile go...we let Hampton go, Drayton will not pay for arguably the most important player on the team. The starting pitcher....... Oswalt and Miller may develop into all star pitchers, but you watch....they will be traded before they get the HUGE contract. Starting pitching is the problem.....offense comes and goes....but if you have QUALITY starting pitching.....it gives you a great chance to win.. Bullpens are like a good bench in basketball.....oh goody...but in reality it is the starters who matter the most. DD
I'm not siding with DaDa here, but I'm sure that it doesn't hurt the pen that we've outscored our opponents something like 120-20 in the eighth and ninth innings. The fact that our pen's only given up 20 runs late is a testament to Dotel and Wagner.
Changing your arugment again. How does your last post prove that our bullpen is overrated? No one is arguing that our starting pitching is stellar. But just because it isn't doesn't mean we should decimate the best part of our team.
RM95....I guess the title of my post should have been relying on a bullpen is overated...... I just get tired of hearing how great our bullpen is, when the bullpen is WAY down the list of importance on a quality team. DD
DaDakota, You want to see how important a dominating pen is, look at why NY hasn't won it all the last 2 years. They have let Stanton and esp Nelson, get away. And Rivera has gotten hurt frequently exposing them even more. A great bullpen is built for the postseason, trust me. However, of course a potent lineup and dominating rotation are more pressing issues, but having a dominant pen is a very important luxury to have and we have it, so we shouldnt give it up. You think teams will enjoy Roy-O/Wade leaving in a close game late with the three headed monster of lidge-dotel-wags awaiting them. It becomes essentially a 6 inning game. Saarloos has dominated out of the pen as well, and munro and stone are serviceable mop up men, but rest assured championship teams usually have a dominant bullpen, esp with starting pitching so depleted in the modern game. Look at K-Rod/Percival in Anaheim last year, F-Rod-Nen in SF, Stanton-Nelson-Rivera in NY. The one exception was the D-Backs, but they also had 2 of the top 3 pitchers in the game at the time pitching at their peaks. They are the exception, not the rule if you ask me. Gerry will go get us one more starter, but really I think our starters are not that bad. Wade and Roy will find themselves I believe, Redding except for these two zona starts has put it together, robertson has got it working since his 2nd recall, and Rosario had an impressive 1st outing. Still, Roy-Wade is one of the top 3 or 4 one-two NL starter combos and redding is a solid 3. Add one more vet pitcher to protect from injury/redding losing focus and we will be fine. Jimy gets an A plus from me so far this year. We have not even come close to our potential, and eventually we will. Watch out when we do.
