Otis Smith badmouthing Turkoglu to Kevin Pritchard

Of course no one is going to argue that Hedo was not vital to the Magic's success last year, but I think that what others fail to consider is that Dwight Howard may not be able to keep up this play forever. If he does in fact start to decline, I think that having a more conventional power forward like Brandon Bass will be a God-send.

 

Calling Courney Lee a "great player", a "terrific defender" and a "great slasher" are all statements that my brain can't process. He looks like a decent player but I think you're jumping off the deep end here. We'll have to see what happens. You could be right about him being a Most Improved Player candidate. Outside of Devin Harris and Brook Lopez the Nets will definitely a player on the wings that can score.

Disagreed that Bass is no different than Battie. Bass can score in a variety of ways -- he can post up, hit the mid-range jumper and put the ball on the floor. Battie can't do all of that. Bass is better than Battie in every aspect of the game right now. The only thing Battie has on Bass, and consequently the reason why Bass hasn't already been a starter in this league somewhere, is due to Bass being somewhat undersized.

 

Bass is better than Battie, No question. However, he cannot create his own shot and neither can Battie. Both are pretty good mid-range shooters and Bass plays bigger than what he is. However, the problem with this is, IF Dwight Howard gets doubled instead of passing it to a teammate for a wide open 3, Bass will just be shooting a mid-range jumper. That's 1 point different right there and it could cause a pretty big difference.

I'd also like to add that Hedo Turkoglu was a type of player that kept the ball-movement going while Vince Carter is a type of player that stops the ball-movement known as the "Ball-Stopper" Now Vince is highly underrated at passing, but he is a ball-stopper, he more so create the plays instead of keeps the play going.

The Magic play the outside-In not the inside-out, they benefited and got tons of 3s because of ball-movement than from Dwight Howard. So I don't think the Magic's offense will be clicking until Dwight is capable of having an offense run through him. Currently, You cannot operate an offense through him.

 

Carter on the other hand is all heart.

 

Nah, I don't think you've followed Bass enough if you really think he can't create his own offense. Don't just take my word for it -- pull up any scouting report online and they will echo my comments. As for our spacing disagreement, I'll take the guy taking a shot wide open or putting the ball on the floor from 10-15 feet over the guy taking a 25-footer. The fact that one of those shots is worth two points and one is worth three is irrelevant -- we're talking about a matter of physics here. The closer you are to the basket the higher percentage the shot is. Bass is very strong and aggressive. His and-1's will be through the roof if he puts the ball on the floor in those scenarios.

I disagree entirely that VC is a ball-stopper. Ball-stoppers are ISO, dribble-dribble-dribble type players. Vince is great at both playing off the ball and with the ball in his hands. He's not prone to holding the ball, wearing down the shot clock and jacking up some crap shot like the AI's, Francis's and others have been known to do. VC will run the same PnR's that Hedo did. Hell, I'd be surprised if SVG even bothers to change the playbook. Vince can do everything that Hedo could do as a playmaker.

The better Dwight gets the more automatic the double teams will become. Right now, he's neutralized the same way people tried to neutralize Shaq. Some teams double, some don't. Once he develops a face-up game and stops relying so heavily on the deep post position, teams are going to be completely flustered on how to play him. Once that happens don't be surprised when jokers like Rashard and Jameer bolster their PPG a notch or two once those double teams become automatic.

 

I'll give Otis Smith credit he didn't sit on his hands after losing Hedo. Went out and got VC and made a lot of changes to a team that got to the NBA finals, lets see next season if he is the ultimate jerk or ultimate GM.

 

No, VC is a ball-stopper he might not be as much of a ball-stopper as Francis or Iverson, but he's a ball-stopper in the same sense his cousin Tracy McGrady is a ball-stopper. I don't ever recall Vince Carter playing without the ball, maybe for a couple of seconds when Jason Kidd had the rock in his hand and that's about it. Vince is the better playmaker, but he's more of a thread the needle kind of playmaker than he is of a player that keeps the ball-movement going.

One thing you don't understand is, Jameer Nelson is not a pure PG. It will be more likely that Vince Carter runs the offense than Jameer. Hedo kinda ran the offense last season when Jameer was playing, but Jameer did run the show MOST of the time.

Shaq was only neutralized by forcing him to shoot FTs and double teams. That's not how it works for Dwight. All you need is a center just as big and strong as him and you're set, No doubles, no fronting, no fouling, no nothing. You're set and he won't be scoring in bunches like he did against Big Z. Until he gets his offensive game, then the Magic will keep playing outside-inside basketball and as Jon Barry said that doesn't win you championships.

 

You're running in circles here. Hedo was not some Magic Johnson type tall PG that could run any type of offense, any style with any personnel. Your suggestion that Vince is a ball-stopper and (judging by your criteria) that Hedo is not is absolutely perplexing. When Hedo had the ball in his hands as a playmaker it was either a PnR with Dwight or one of his dribble-dribble-dribble one-legged three point attempts that we've all seen him do 1,000 times. Hedo is a good playmaker for a wing player but he is NOT an elite playmaker, by any stretch of the imagination. Again, I will be surprised if SVG even changes his playbook because Vince can handle every single play that Hedo could. The idea is with two solid playmakers your offense should be fine. With Hedo and Jameer the Magic were fine. I expect VC and Jameer to be no different.

No. Not to derail this thread but both are neutralized by denying them deep post position and forcing them away from the basket. The matter in question is whether or not to double. With Dwight some teams do, some don't. With Shaq you absolutely had to double and/or foul. My point is: as Dwight continues to get better the double teams will become more automatic. That doesn't mean he's as good as Shaq was -- because he's not. It still doesn't change the fact that Dwight's style is eerily reminiscent of Shaq's and that eventually you will need to play them both the same way. Once that happens those open shooters that surround Dwight are going to start looking a lot better. And that's why this is relevant to our discussion.

 

As far as keeping the ball-movement going and running plays, Hedo did that. Sure there were teams when he kept the offense stagnant by running the same plays over and over again but their were frequent times when they won ball-games because Rashard had a good amount of open 3's and other players had a good amount of open 3s and it wasn't so much of Dwight's attention or presence, it was because the ball-movement didn't stop going.

We can agree to disagree here.

Sorry, hate to burst your bubble here but Dwight doesn't have much in common with Shaq. They are both black and they both can't shoot FTs and that's about all they have in common. If Dwight Howard reminds me of any player it's probably Moses Malone or Shawn Kemp. Dwight is not even a legit center, If this was the 90s or 80s he would probably be a power forward even though he plays more like a center.

Shaq has always been and will always be remembered as an offensive player. Dwight will never be remembered as that. Shaq always said during his younger years he never played defense and he would just dominant everybody offensively. Along with that, Shaq couldn't defend the pick n roll to save his life while Dwight could. Another difference is that usually when Shaq gets doubled he is much more willing to re-post himself than Dwight is and another thing is Shaq has drew double-teams and attention since Day 1 as an NBA player. Dwight to this very day doesn't even draw the amount of attention that a player like Yao Ming draws.

Not to mention, No player had any chance what so ever at guarding Shaq in single coverage, If Kendrick Perkins was guarding Young Shaq in single coverage, Shaq would averaged 50 PPG. Dwight? He averaged 16 PPG in single coverage. Dwight will never even be better offensively than Yao if you ask me, and in my opinion Dwight is nearly maxed out offensively due to his poor touch, footwork and IQ. That's an opinion though, anything is possible.

 

For any objective fan, acknowledging similarities between two players usually isn't a big deal. For whatever reason some people have a tough time doing that with Dwight and Shaq. Why? I don't know. Are they the same player or is Dwight as good as Shaq. Of course not, but at 23-years-old you have to be open to the possibility.

Their offensive games are similar. To deny this is really quite foolish. Both absolutely THRIVE off of deep post position. We've already established that they're both are neutralized the same way (deny position, double when necessary, foul if he gets within 5-feet). No two post players live in the paint as much as they do -- we're talking 80-85% of their shots come from inside the paint, which is quite staggering. Not Yao, Duncan or anybody else takes as many of their shots inside 5-feet of the basket. Both have effective hook shots and Dwight has even copied Shaq's patented drop-step move. Recently, Dwight added a running hook shot that he can get going from either side. He's a right handed player that seemingly has better touch with his left hand -- I don't expect that to keep up. His face-up game is slowly improving as well -- he has a couple decent spin moves that work. His footwork is also improving -- he's beginning to get some of that Shaq-like smoothness to his game as opposed to the robotic player that he looked like earlier in his career. So really, his offensive game is reminiscent of Shaq's and he seemingly continues to improve. He's not in the same stratosphere as Shaq given that Shaq was an absolute monster offensively. Still, Dwight isn't all THAT far behind. This might surprise some people but he did lead the league in scoring at his position, you know? Better than Yao, Gasol, Duncan and whoever else. Nearly 21 PPG on 12 shots. But yeah, we're talking about somebody that's COMPLETELY inept on offense. Sorry, I forgot.

 

Their offensive skillsets and ways of scoring are similar, but Howard falls way short of what Shaq was as a young player. Shaq became a dominant, awesome offensive player starting with his 2nd year in the league and had a run of 10-12 years we may not see in quite some time. IMO, the difference between the two is about 60-70 lbs and a whole lot of strength. Howard plays at 260-270 while Shaq weighed about 330 lbs early in his career. Shaq required a lot more defensive energy from opposing teams and just sucked the life out of them. Teams hated having to guard him because he dished out and incredible amount of punishment. Howard can't do that because he isn't big and strong enough. This is why I say Howard will NEVER become Shaq or be even be as good as Shaq when you weigh all they do.

 

Agreed that it's unlikely that Dwight will ever become as dominant offensively as Shaq was. By leaving the possibility open that Dwight may one day be on Shaq's level, I mean when you factor in a combination of Dwight's advantages of being a better defender/rebounder, possibly a better shot blocker plus with his probable continued improvement offensively. That any combination of the above might offset Shaq's unheard of dominance on the offensive end.

 

Well I think you just listed the difference right there. I have league pass and I've been watching a lot of the Magic games in recent years just to compare Yao Ming to Dwight Howard, and I do feel Yao is better. But along with that Dwight does not play much similar to Shaq.

You are correct they do completely thrive off of deep post position that's one thing they have in common. But you can neutralize Dwight off of single coverage while you can't with Shaq. That's a HUGE difference whether you like it or not. Shaq has always been and always will be a back to basket player. Usually he just bangs and bangs and he gets an easy dunk or an easy hook shot. Along with that Shaq had a very nice jump hook in his game as well, Dwight will never have a jump hook.

Dwight has one post move....the running hook, that usually fails most of the time (See Celtics or Lakers Series). The only time it works is against Big Z, somebody who is weak, slow, and stupid. Dwight is more of a face up player, and he'll never be a back to basket player like Shaq was. Shaq's footwork beats Dwight's by miles.

Really, in my opinion I think Dwight has more things in common with David Robinson than with Shaq, the only major difference is The Admiral had a nice mid-range jumper and would make his FTs. Everything else they were very similar.

Well If you are going to say that, I mind as well say Yao Ming is similar to Hakeem Olajuwon since they both score in similar ways as well, Are they similar players? Not even close.

 

Anything is possible, but Shaq's first 5 years completely blow away Howard's by a huge margin. I doubt Howard can close the gap much unless he actually becomes a skilled offensive player, which won't happen. If he doesn't take a noteworthy step forward this coming season, he never will.

Again, for the record, I like Dwight Howard and enjoy watching Magic games. He seems like a nice kid. I want him to be as great a player as possible.

 

Yuor post doesn't make sense at all.

Rafer only went to the Magic mid season. Jameer was steering the ship before that. If anything, it's a wash because Jameer is FAR FAR FAR FAR superior to Alston on Offense, it's not even close. Rafer is much better defensively though.

Also, look at Vince's numbers. They are not superstar numbers, but he's replacing Turkoglu. Turkoglu, again, doesn't do anything much better than Vince. Here are last season's numbers:

Hedo (@ 39 minutes per game) > Vince (@ 37 minutes per game):
FG 41.3% on 13.3 shots > FG 43.7% on 16.8 shots
3pt 35.6% on 4.9 attempts > 3pt 38.5% on 4.9 attempts
FT 80.7% on 5.1 attempts > FT 81.7% on 5.1 attempts
5.3 rebounds > 5.1 rebounds
4.9 assists > 4.7 assists


As you can see, Turkoglu is not better at anything, but not as good in a lot of places. His rebounding and assist numbers are better, but if you standardize the minutes per game, that's gone.

Nevermind that Vince is slightly better at steals, blocks and turns it over LESS despite being at the same assist number.

How can you call him a ball stopper when he averaged as many assists, a better asst/to ratio on a team where he is the number one offensive option? Makes absolutely no sense and it's clear that you're just clinging on to titles he gained as a young player.

Turkoglu is 2 years younger. That's IT. But Turkoglu's contract is a few years longer as well. There is absolutely no question that Vince is far superior to Turkoglu, and that he is more likely to be able to go head-to-head with a Kobe, Allen or Pierce than Turkoglu OR Courtney Lee for that matter.

Aside from that, your assertion that Dwight will suffer because of he will lack spacing of Lewis/Hedo is simply false. Lewis/Carter provide better 3-pt shooting AND add the dimension of cutting to the basket. So basically, Carter is Courtney Lee and Hedo Turkoglu in one player.

Finally, your assertion that Dwight would not succeed at PF... Makes no sense. He has Gortat and Bass - meaning, he can play either PF or C on offense, and either PF or C on defense. He doesn't even have to play the same position on both ends - Bass can hit the open jumper, go to the basket strong, and clean up the offensive boards. Doesn't even requrie the ball.

 

No guarantee Jameer returns to his all-star status. Could look like a fluke season.

Hedo posses a bigger mismatch than Carter ever will. Hedo is 6'10 with pretty good handles and is capable of creating his own shot. 6'10 is a huge difference especially when 6'5-6'8 players are guarding you.

Carter is more of a playmaker, while Hedo keeps the ball-movement going. It makes perfect sense if you understand basketball. Carter needs the ball and create to get assists, Hedo just passes the ball around and sometimes gets hockey assists.

And you question my sense?

I see no evidence of that. When Gortat was playing alongside Dwight in the Finals they were very un-effective on the offensive end. Try again.

 

Agreed that if Dwight is going to make that "jump" it will have to happen over the next season or two. Like I said earlier, I don't expect Dwight to ever be as dominant as Shaq was offensively, I just think the possibility still exists that his overall game may put him into the same neighborhood someday. If he continues to improve and, say, leads the Magic to the Finals again -- it's going to be tough to not consider his progression on the same level.

But, that's a tall task even for a player like Dwight. I should be careful how I word things because I am almost making Shaq sound like some sort of pushover defensively, when in fact, he wasn't. It's not like we're talking about Amare Stoudemire here. Shaq was always a decent defender that rebounded and blocked a lot of shots too. Dwight may be better in those areas, but it's probably not by as much of a margin as it would take to offset Shaq's sheer dominance.

 

I think Howard will be lucky to have one or two seasons as dominant as any one of Shaq's incredible 10 year run. I can't see Dwight ever being considered in the same echelon as Shaq. He doesn't demoralize and brutalize teams like Shaq did. Teams don't dread playing against him.

As you mention, Shaq was no slouch on defense in his day. His nimbleness and hops were incredible for his size.

 

There is absolutely no reason to think he won't. It doesn't matter if he makes the All Star game, it just matters that he's productive. His career has been on a clear and constant positive trend. His injury was not sever enough to say he won't return to that. Why would you even question that?

Ok, Hedo is a bigger mismatch in size, big deal. That specific mismatch is duplicated with Rashard Lewis. I'm going to use an extreme example to demonstrate what you're saying: Monta Ellis creates a terriffic mismatch at SG/SF due to his size and speed, which nets him tons of points. Well that's great, but that's not better than Kobe Bryant at the SG/SF position who is physically a prototypical swingman but remains the better SG than Monta Ellis.


Also, the point is, Bass and Gortat give Howard options. To play C, PF, inside, outside, anything. Also, Lewis is still on the team and can continue to do what he did. Point being: Nothing has changed from the PF/C spot except that Bass was added and is a terriffic complimentary player for Dwight.