I believe this argument confuses emotional investment with moral regard. I've travelled a lot and seen a lot, and while you're correct that a murder of someone close to me would shake me and anger me on a much deeper level emotionally, with all honesty I can tell you that the murder of innocent strangers on the other side of the world outrages me on a moral level entirely as much as anything close to home. I've seen it. Furthermore, I have had other very violent, wicked crimes committed against members of my family--and I can tell you, those actions committed against total strangers outrage me, before and after these closer-to-home incidents, just as much as the ones that hit home. Evil is evil, regardless of how close it hits to home. I have always hated it and I always will. That analogy is pretty heavy for this conversation, really. We're talking about a game (but I understand the lines you were trying to draw). We can't "fix" any mistake in the history of baseball. I don't argue that we shouldn't care about cheating. We actively prevent cheating in that manner going forward as much as we can; we discipline the cheaters if possible, and finally we cut our losses and move on. ("We" in the sense that "we" hope MLB acts well in "our"--the fans--best interest.) In the 10s or 20s or whenever it was that the spitball was made illegal, baseball didn't have a witchhunt and asterisk the accomplishments of every spitballer. You can't tell me that spitball didn't have a *huge* impact on the pitcher's effectiveness. No one's wanting to asterisk Gaylord Perry, who licked his balls (so to speak) decades after it was illegal. He was a *huge* cheater and reaped many benefits. We're all pretty sure he was great with or without his spitball, but the extra edge is undeniable even though it is unquantifiable. Mickey Mantle kept producing at a fantastic clip, despite his body being more and more broken down, via the use of illegal stimulants. I've heard it argued that they didn't have as much of an effect on his performance, and I'm not completely buying it. Of course not as much as becoming a behemoth like Bonds--but if you can delay the pain for a couple hours and play like you're 20 again, don't try to sell me that it didn't impact his performance. All these cheaters were *great* players. Hall of Famers. If you asterisk one cheater, asterisk all of them. We can hate what this generation of guys have done without overreacting. We can disrespect how they've cheated without losing a love for the game. We can acknowledge the taint on their accomplishments while keeping in mind the larger historical picture of other, albeit lesser, taints on other great players. That's all I'm saying.
Certainly - but I think most people would be more likely to speak about the ones that directly affect them. That explains Roy ranting about steroids but not what some guys in the 1950's did. All very true - but perhaps if baseball *had* gone on a witchhunt and retroactively shamed players that got caught after the fact, it might have discouraged the next wave of cheating at least a little bit. Part of the cheating is financial (and that's hard to stop), but part of it is also the attention/being known as the best/etc. If cheaters in the future know they might be subject to all this public ridicule or have their records stripped or be ineligible for the hall of fame or whatnot, they might be at least a little bit less likely to try whatever new method of cheating comes next. We can't change that baseball didn't aggressively target cheaters in the past (or we could, but it wouldn't really have a lot of meaning at this point), but that doesn't mean they can't start now and improve the game down the line.
I agree with all of this - but I think one problem with steroids is just how much of a difference it made. It didn't just keep a great player great for a longer period, or make a really good player into a really really good player. They turned Luis Gonzales into a 60 HR hitter. They turned Brady Anderson from a 15 HR hitter into a 50 HR hitter. They turned Ken Caminiti from an 0.800 OPS player to a 1.000+ OPS player. They basically completely turned stats upside down for a lot of players. Based on that 2003 anonymous sample, 8% of players tested positive. At the high end, I think we can assume 15% or so used. If that's case, that means 85% of the players didn't - and I totally understand why those that didn't would be pissed that they lost out on huge contracts or MVP awards or whatnot because 15% of the players were cheating. I think it makes perfect sense for them to be angry about it.
Ah, gotcha. His take still strikes me as just whiny, though. He should have taken the opportunity to just brag, but that's my opinion. Or perhaps they would have done it anyway, then lied bald-faced to the media, the fans, the commissioner, and anyone else. (See: Rose, Pete) I see where you're coming from. I'm not sure I agree, though. Very few witch hunts have historically been good for any organization.
Well hold on there, though. None of the players you mention here had an appreciable impact on the game. Cammy won an MVP and went to two NLCS. Gonzo was productive offensively (but not on that level, of course) before and after his roided HR surge, and was involved in one WS. These guys didn't break any records and they were never regarded as the best--or even top 10--in their own league, except perhaps for their one year in the roided sun. So, what we have here are some guys who healed quicker (Pettitte), some guys who turned in superhuman numbers and broke hallowed records, and some one-year wonders. And some AAAA players desperately trying to make a roster. It taints the one year of the one-year wonders, but it doesn't taint (to me anyway) the whole sport. It taints Bonds and Rocket, etc., but not the whole sport. (For me, Bonds's sick OBP is tainted even more than his HR record. No one would fear him quite as much had he been hitting 45-50 a year instead of fricken 70.) I've recently heard (but have no supportive link) that the 104 includes positive tests for substances *other* than PEDs as well. Not that it matters too much to this argument; just throwing it out there. Understood. And, carrying the argument further, it would make perfect sense for Gaylord Perry's contemporaries to hate his guts, and Mantle's contempories to hate his. I was speaking more from a fan's perspective than a player's. I see where you're coming from. Still, it strikes me as whiny what Roy said. It just does. Crap happens, people lie, cheat, and steal. If he's really upset that he didn't net another 20 or 30 mil, I can't say I feel too sorry for him. Frankly, Ken Lay angers me a hell of a lot more than Rocket or Barry ever have or ever will.
Eh, don't really know what that was all about from Oswalt. I'm not surprised about Roy now throwing Clemens under the bus yet. Roy seems like he's got a bit more class than to do that.
He should patent that technique. Simply hook everyone up to a car battery or run several hundred volts of electricity through them. An army of super-pitchers would be imminent
We are truly blessed as 'Stros fans that even fans of our rivals respect our players. I loved hearing how that guy thinks we are the Cards true rivals. I've heard so much about that Cards - Cubs rivalry that is historic but lets not forget that for about the last 15 years three teams have been dominating our divsion. Stros, Cards and Cubs. The Brewers are making some noise but they got a way to go. Speaking of the Brewers and the NL Central their game opening video is their mascot hitting balls out of Miler Park that blow up the other NL Central stadiums.
QUESTION: Remove AROD's -Steroid inflated numbers - what kind of contract do you think he would have now? Rocket River
His numbers outside of the years where he claims he did steroids are virtually identical to the years he didn't. His numbers over the last few seasons in NY have been phenomenal. He was an MVP with or without steroids.
you don't believe that time frame he gave is the only time he took it do you? that said, I do agree he's a hall of fame level talent without the juice, same with bonds and clemens, but would their place in history be as high? absolutely not.
So is Roy willing to give back his NL pennant? The Astros certainly wouldn't have gotten to the World Series without A-Rod's fellow users Clemens & Pettitte.
I don't know what to believe, frankly. That's the best information I have right now. I don't believe he was juicing since the new testing was in place...while in NYY...and his numbers look nearly identical to his numbers in Arlington.
