People assumed it was a Muslim terrorist attack, because those are the most common type around the world, especially the spectacular ones involving explosions. It's also possible that the inspiration for the shooting was this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_terrorist_attacks
I respectfully disagee. We're talkin about the guy who list of muslims o who he considers are extremist or not and you're surprised people are jumping down his throat? I already apologized for bustin his balls, both our faults on that. But saying you can't believe he's getting criticized like this is what's surprising.
Same here. Most of the black metal bands of the period (when they were running rampant) held similar views to this guy, though many of them wanted to do away with Christianity as well (they believed in a return to the "original" Norway prior to Christian influence).
And if you had bothered reading the rest of they post you quote me from I say we shouldn't jump to conclusions.
dude...euronymous is rolling over in his grave right now! its norwegian BLACK METAL! and dont forget it! BLACK METAL is nothing like death metal. BLACK METAL is awesome and evil. there is a book about the early 90's norwegian BLACK METAL scene called "lords of chaos" - i highly recommend it to anyone who likes to read music bios. and i actually kind of thought there might be some tie-in there too. that scene is totally racist and many are outright nazis, but they save their most rabid hatred for christianity b/c they came in and destroyed the pagan religions. that is why the burn down christian churches and desecrate their graves. they claim that when christian invaders came to norway they did the same thing to the pagan temples and graves so they are getting them back. they want a return to the pre-christian religions of norway so the idea that a BLACK METALER would carry this stuff out is plausible.
Considering how freely information moves across the globe I don't find this that surprising. For example cartoons in Denmark can ignite protest in Karachi I don't see why someone in Norway might not be influenced by blogs in the US. Agree though that censorship is a bad idea. We really need more information than less.
Sam Harris sums up my thoughts on the matter perfectly: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/christian-terrorism-and-islamophobia/ At certain points near the extremity of human evil it becomes difficult, and perhaps pointless, to make ethical distinctions. However, I cannot shake the feeling that detonating a large bomb in the center of a peaceful city with the intent of killing vast numbers of innocent people was the lesser of Anders Behring Breivik’s transgressions last week. It seems to me that it required greater malice, and even less humanity, to have intended this atrocity to be a mere diversion, so that he could then commit nearly one hundred separate murders on the tiny Island of Utoya later in the day. And just when one thought the human mind could grow no more depraved, one learns details like the following: Other unsettling facts will surely surface in the coming weeks. Some might even be vaguely exculpatory. Is Breivik mentally ill? Judging from his behavior, it is difficult to imagine a definition of “sanity” that could contain him. It has been widely reported that Breivik is a “Christian fundamentalist.” Having read parts of his 1500-page manifesto (2083: A European Declaration of Independence), I must say that I have my doubts. These do not appear to be the ruminations of an especially committed Christian: As I have only read parts of this document, I cannot say whether signs of a deeper religious motive appear elsewhere in it. Nevertheless, the above passages would seem to undermine any claim that Breivik is a Christian fundamentalist in the usual sense. What cannot be doubted, however, is that Breivik’s explicit goal was to punish European liberals for their timidity in the face of Islam. I have written a fair amount about the threat that Islam poses to open societies, but I am happy to say that Breivik appears never to have heard of me. He has, however, digested the opinions of many writers who share my general concerns—Theodore Dalrymple, Robert D. Kaplan, Lee Harris, Ibn Warraq, Bernard Lewis, Andrew Bostom, Robert Spencer, Walid Shoebat, Daniel Pipes, Bat Ye’or, Mark Steyn, Samuel Huntington, et al. He even singles out my friend and colleague Ayaan Hirsi Ali for special praise, repeatedly quoting a blogger who thinks she deserves a Nobel Peace Prize. With a friend like Breivik, one will never want for enemies. One can only hope that the horror and outrage provoked by Breivik’s behavior will temper the growing enthusiasm for right-wing, racist nationalism in Europe. However, one now fears the swing of another pendulum: We are bound to hear a lot of deluded talk about the dangers of “Islamophobia” and about the need to address the threat of “terrorism” in purely generic terms. The emergence of “Christian” terrorism in Europe does absolutely nothing to diminish or simplify the problem of Islam—its repression of women, its hostility toward free speech, and its all-too-facile and frequent resort to threats and violence. Islam remains the most retrograde and ill-behaved religion on earth. And the final irony of Breivik’s despicable life is that he has made that truth even more difficult to speak about.
Speak for yourself. I think R2K made an excellent, and needed, post, and instead of blowing it off, some of you should pay attention, including Jackie. You act blameless in this massive derail, but few of you are. How about giving some thought to what actually happened, instead of having yet another spat about an issue that has been done to death here. Something I consider actual news? The police took an hour and a half to respond to reports of shootings on that island. An hour and a half! Young people were being hunted down and shot, those shot were bleeding to death, those attempting to swim away were being forced to drown in the frigid water, or swimming back to that madman. It's incredible. The police took a car to the lake, and then spent half an hour attempting to find a boat. They claimed that a helicopter wasn't easily avaliable. It is simply stunning that the response was so bungled. Stunning, tragic, and rediculous.
The Muderer's manifesto: <iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rAwp2FnRmsE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
What is interesting is how about that al-quaeda or terrorist group that claimed responsibility for this? How many more times have they done that on other attacks they had no connection to just to build up their 'reputation' and create this illusion that they are this organized and united front of groups spread throughout. That was the perception, but i think that is something that needs to be focused on. They did it confidently and clearly, and if the attacker was not clearer and admitting it like this case, we could easily chalk it up as them, how many other times did this happen and we tied it to them and maybe there is a separate extremist group behind it. Its weird and interesting to look into
Blameless? derailment? Uh, the thread derailed when it turned out that "islamist miltants" didn't actually conduct the attacks and in fact it was the exact opposite insofar it was a muslim-hater who perpetrated them. Then the entire premise went out the window. So if you want to blame me for highlighting that "derailment" , that's fine - what actually derailed the tired "THERE'S YOUR RELIGION OF PEACE SEE SEE!" potbangers from dancing their little dance was actually a little thing called....reality.
So basically you are saying we should just deal with the troll? If Jackie didn't harp on every single Pro Muslim poster he disagrees with, then maybe they wouldn't be so quick to attack him. He has likened many to terrorism, hatred, Islamism, extremism, etc etc...
Violent islamist militants and violent Neo-Nazi muslim haters aren't opposites of each other. They are actually very similar in their ways. The only difference is that they use a different projection target and a different justification for their hate. Everything else is pretty much the same (propensity for violence, irrationality, level of hate, etc. etc.). Just like violent left-wing extremists and violent right-wing extremists aren't opposites of each other. You would actually be surprised that people move from one to the other sometimes. The opposite of a violent Islamist militant is the same as that of a violent Neo-Nazi: A moderate. Note that I did not make any such comments. The one dancing a little dance is you. You have been soooooo giddy that the fact that this was not committed by Islamists, as initially speculated by the media, gives you an opportunity to act as if you are in some way morally superior to those who speculated that this could have been committed by Islamists, it's amusing to watch.
Come on, Sam, I didn't mention you. In fact, the only person I mentioned by name was ATF. Again, we should be talking about what happened, not the reaction to what happened. Why don't you start a thread on "The Initial Reaction to the Tragedy in Norway." Highlight and discuss the initial reaction from many quarters, not just SJC, that these were the acts of Islamic extremists. Point out how unfair that was, and others, if they choose, can discuss why they think such a reaction was reasonable. You, and others, can point out why that doesn't fly. I agree that the thread title should have been different, and certainly that ATF (and not only him) used language towards other members that didn't help discussion at all, but that reaction didn't occur in a vacuum. Discuss it!
No, Sam. You took the focus of the thread (the attack) and made it ATW. Like you guys so often do. He posted an article, vertbatim, from a trusted news source, and you guys are treating him like he editorialized this whole thing. Did the suspicion of Islamic involvement fuel ATW's posting of the thread? Probably, but did he derail this? No, you guys did. In fact, you felt so compelled to derail this discussion that you chose to make an entirely new thread about the subject specifically to mock him. I guess we can appreciate the fact you wanted to have a different place for the pissing contest to take place, although it seems to have only made things worse.
ATW has pleasant, reasoned exchanges with many Muslim posters here. He has never likened anyone here to a terrorist, though many have called him a Nazi or worse. Just because ATW disagrees with you philosophically doesn't make him a troll, it makes you thin-skinned.
Attacking him in this thread may not be deserved, but he definitely has likened posters on here to terrorists.
