What is it with this Fellowship of Christian Athletes group? Isn't it enough to be on a team or just be an athlete with all that the title conveys? No... these people have to also be a "Christian" athlete. Strange. It must really be tough psychologically.
That appears to be very specious reasoning. Why does membership in a Filipino Engineering group mean that B needs to be babied. Couldn't B be a better employee as to be willing to pursue every possible advantage to career advancement versus A who hasn't bothered to pursue such opportunities? A racial / ethnic based professional organization though isn't affirmative action. It is an organization meant to advance professional achievement through networking and mentorship that happens to have a focus on a particular subset of people. It doesn't guarentee or mandate hiring based upon ethnicity or any other factor.
I'm more chagrined by the Engineer part than the Black part. An organization of Engineers is just that... an organization of engineers not engineering students. Maybe they should be the NSBEStudents or maybe there is an associate membership for students or something...
Don't most professional societies allow college students to join, if they're planning to go into that profession? It can be a great resource for networking, or just for getting advice/guidance. God knows we need all the help we can get coming out of school now...
"DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND !!!!! for centuries black folx were told YOU CANNOT JOIN THIS ORGANIZATION!!! so Black folx made their own well . . now. . WE LIKE U-PEOPLE . . YOU CAN COME ON IN NOW . .. By the way That organization you built through blood sweat and tears . . .well Dismantle it .. ignore it .. . let it go come on over to the 'GOOD ORGANIZATION' instead of that 'SECOND RATE' organization U-PEOPLE BUILT' . . . Cause u know. . 'OURS IS BETTER' . . and since we have been so kind to ALLOW U-People in now .. . you don't need yours any more .. . You know . . the one you built and control and have some ACTUAL SAY IN . . . I mean . . .You built an organization that helps you and yours but come join OURS where you will always be out voted and no one really gives a d*mn about your specific issues because they don't affect the 'greater whole' which is really just another way of saying white folx but you not suppose to catch no to that and think of it that way. " Sincerely, Ronny the . . . . . . Rocket River
In the case of some organizations you also don't have to be a licensed professional. For instance you can join the American Institute of Architects as a non-architect. It is noted in your membership that you aren't one but you can still be a member.
I'm familiar with Associate Memberships in some organizations. A lot of people don't make it through a professional education and/or certification so they make a kind of secondary status "with intent."
Ronny, you don't understand what these organizations do, and they are in no way an affirmative action branch. In case you hadn't noticed, some groups are underrepresented and don't have the same networking opportunities, they've made organizations such as these, to give back to a community that could use extra means of positive mentorship and advancement. In return, hopefully they will give back as well, and the whole community will benefit, which in turn makes everyone benefit. Frankly the need for affirmative action is demonstrated by your supposition that people in this organization aren't qualified to have a job otherwise. That isn't the purpose of affirmative action, nor these organizations, but your willingness to cast anyone who's a minority and belongs to a minority organization as less qualified because of that, proves we have a long way to go before affirmative action should be retracted.
I disagree with Ronny, but am confused about your post. We both agree that they are qualified to have these jobs. You say that some groups are underrepresented. I have to wonder about that for a second. Who cares if they are? It's not about representation, it's about being qualified. If these candidates are qualified, and there is an irrational imbalance in the representation of different groups.. Then wouldn't it make sense to form a group called "Human Resources Race Awareness Group" rather than forming an engineering group which is limited by race? It seems the problem is with the hiring process/function and, if there is an irrational imbalance in race, then this kind of reverse discrimination is not addressing the heart of the issue and in fact is crystalizing a seperation between Black engineers and non-Black engineers. I tend to agree with Rocket River's post. I don't see it as a good thing, I don't see it as a bad thing, but I do see it as a very rational reaction to the circumstances.
First of, there is no reverse discrimination. These organizations cannot and do not prevent a specific race, sex, etc from joining. Back in undergrad, I was part of the Houston Louis-Stokes Alliance for Minority Participation (H-LSAMP). I'm not an underrepresented minority, but I was allowed to join and take advantage of all the benefits. In fact there were several white students (probably economically disadvantaged) that were part of the organization too. Secondly, the main point you are overlooking is that while these students are promising candidates, they are not yet qualified. In order to be equally qualified, you need the appropriate resources and opportunities; these organizations supply these things in an attractive environment. The reason for having organization that, at least by label, caters to a specific group is provide a sense of belonging and familiarity. An individual is much more likely to join and be comfortable in an organization where they feel like they belong. Ask any minority who went to a predominantly white high school whether they totally felt like they belonged without having to become "white washed." The same can be said for the reverse situation or an analogous one. However, I will agree with you that if there is a possibility that isolating oneself entirely within the confines of one group will definitely make it hard to assimilate when you rejoin the real world. However, that sounds like an issue the individual should address.
I don't think there is an employer in the world who thinks some gets an unfair advantage by joining the NSBE! Seriously? The only thing it says about someone is that they care about their profession and have integrated it into some level of their identity. How on earth does it promote affirmative action? Do you think an interviewer doesn't know someone is black when they interview them? Do you think identifying on your resume you are black actually helps you? Actually probably the opposite effect. If a bunch of people from Alaska move to New York and form the Alaskan Society of Engineers - does that make them have an inferiority complex? Or are they just trying to keep a community together based on a common professional interest?
To me you harbor a defeatist attitude. I'm a minority, it's only right I stay within the confines of the limits I perceive society has established for minorities. I am entitled to special attention because I drink grape juice and whites don't! Why don't you take a seat and tell us how you really feel... what are these specific issues you speak of that groups with whites don't pay attention to. Be honest and be detailed, I don't want to be the big elephant in the room looking at things from an ivory tower.
So you're saying my Hispanic employees will be looking to hire Hispanics to follow their suit, blacks with blacks, asians with asians, because of natural selection, strong community ties, etc. Look at all the petty office politics you're creating because you want to feel like you're part of a community that is wronged. Of course I understand your point at the core, but I don't believe in raising my kids with a defeatist, woe is me type attitude like your everyday PGabriel, always finding ways to whine and b**** about the system. I see a black guy in the National Society of Engineers as much more mentally strong than a black a guy in the National Society of Black Engineers, because his passion and hunger for engineering is so great that he puts aside all the petty issues and grievances (which RR will list for us) non-social minority organizations feel like they're entitled to. He's above it. Oh, I forgot 21st century African-Americans weren't born in America, they recently migrated here. Poor them, displaced, underrepresented, underprivileged, do you see where I'm going with this? The whole nature versus nurture debate is being exaggerated here, a poor minority might have been brought up with different self esteem issues and opportunities growing up but once in Georgia Tech, everyone takes the same exams and goes to the same classes. This is the 21st century, you can easily play the minority card to your advantage with a little savvy and swagger. It's the white suburban kids who buy Soulja Boy and 50 cent CD's.
So you're de-facto writing off the possibility of minority organizations promoting a me versus them attitude due to it being an "individual thing"? I'd like someone who has been a part of these organizations to give a testimonial as to the inner workings without getting too catty and defensive. Just open up.
Ronny, you're a star. I actually admire your work from afar. (didnt mean to rhyme, but whatever) The ironic part to me is laws on hiring practices specifically state to not discriminate based on color, age, and sex. Yet there are all kinds of pre-employment organizations based on color, age and sex. Though its like someone mentioned, its not like the employer WON'T know the age, sex and color of a candidate interviewing in their face. "In America" (yes, you get to see those words), people can have their different "party affiliations". And the whole of it can come together and make sense once its put together. About "inferiority complexes" with being in certain groups - I think its like sports and athletes that go to smaller lower division schools. Professional teams are going to scout and pick up the real talent WHEREVER kind of pipeline it comes from. Maybe a kid can blossom in junior college before transferring to a better school. Or maybe a kid can be a Division 2 star. That doesnt mean he's taking the path of least resistance. The pros don't care if its a predominately black school, Division 3, junior college, its can you PLAY? Can you do the WORK we want. As long as someone's affiliated group doesnt cause resentment IN THE WORKPLACE, is what I think matters most to employers. If all the workers think someone took a less rigorous path than they did and is faulting the employer for going easy on people, then its time to look at the practice. For the most part I dont think thats the case.
Wow. You sure you just don't hate blacks? Society of Black Engineers has nothing to do with where they migrated from, how poor or how represented they are or anything. It's the same thing as having the Society of Jewish Shipmakers, or a South Asian Society. Or the Society of Florida Archivists. None of those groups are trying to get some kind of affirmative action. They are just like people getting together to meet other professionals in their field who they feel a common bond with. Why is it that the Society of Black Engineers has to be about Affirmative Action? Why are you singling out Blacks here?
I dunno what the **** you're rambling on about, but corporate advancement, and to a lesser extent, job security, is about networking and leadership. Minorities have a harder time building relationships and being viewed as leaders or even equals in predominantly white environments. That's why organizations like this exist.
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying qualified people or people with the potential to be qualified don't get the same opportunities because people with attitudes worse than yours, as well as attitudes like yours keep them from getting that opportunity. These organizations help to correct that. Read what you wrote below. You are pre-judging the character of someone because they are black and belong to an organization that helps their community. You say that without talking about any other qualifications or abilities. This is actually the opposite of the defeatist woe is me attitude. There was a need and the people who had gumption, aspirations, ambition, and self motivation to find this type of organization, join it, take advantage of what it had to offer, shows someone who wants to get ahead and is willing to do what it takes in a perfectly legal and positive way. Furthermore it shows probable good ethics and being a team player because they are willing to give back, and help others as well. That would be someone most people would want on their team. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you sound threatened that because this group does something positive for a group that needs that kind of help simply because they list the word black in their title? Again it's attitudes like this that sometime keep qualified black job seekers or employees from getting the job, or a promotion that they deserve. Nobody is asking for anything for free from this type of organization. Members of these organizations just want better opportunities to show their value. Someone may be the greatest engineer in the world, but if they don't get a chance to meet the right people their potential won't be capitalized. I'm sorry you resent a group taking a positive step to help qualified members of their community.
