I'm just saying statements like people shouldn't procreate because they looted in this situation or they deserve to be shot are kind of extreme. Its easy to sit here and act like these people are the lowest of mankind when none of us know how we would act in their shoes. Its not the debate of whether this is right or wrong, its clearly wrong, its just the typical condecending nature of some of the posters on this board that never changes.
Looting is wrong. I'm not going to say that I wouldn't do it because I probably would but I freely admit that I'm not a good person. I also not going to rationalize it and say that it's the govt's fault for not evacuating the whole city in time or for not ending all poverty.
You don't have to rationalize it. You can understand that govt agencies were negligent in not having adequate plans to evacuate the city and at the same time accept that the looting going on in the aftermath now is wrong and only adding to the disaster. The N.O. mayor is saying now that casualties are likely in the thousands. This even after the city was spared a direct hit in the last few hours, in which case the death toll would have surely been in the tens of thousands. The levies would have given way immediately and residents would not have had the time to escape their swiftly flooding homes and even if they did, there would be 120mph winds waiting for them outside. So even if you still do not believe that decades of planning by the most powerful nation on earth could not have possibly gotten every resident out of the bowl in the 36hrs before the storm hit......well then even if they had gotten a fraction of that amount out - even if they had somewhat tried - they could have saved more lives. Instead of thousands of casualties now, we could have had maybe only hundreds. The bottomline is we could've gotten more people out of harm's way - and we didn't.
You've admitted that you think I'm a racist based on the assumption that you KNOW I must be watching the same tv shows that you are, and therefore must KNOW that all the looters were black. You are the one making outrageous claims of racism based on UNPROVEN assumptions of my television watching habits. As another poster have pointed out in this thread, not everyone is glued to the TV watching the development of this tragedy. No one in this thread is criticizing people who are taking food to feed their family. The looters I'm talking about are the ones taking stuff like jeans, TVs, and jewelry. How do I know? I have this amazing power called "reading." Try it. On page one I posted: Now, things are crazy out there, so your scenario could be true as well. But at least I can back up my claims with reports. If Supermac34 would be so kind as to post a link to his story, we can learn more about the robbery situation in NO. I guess you really don't understand the meaning of "essential." Sure, draining manpower from rescue efforts so you can steal some jeans and TVs to "rebuild" your life later is as "essential" as someone stealing bread and water for his family? Again, I see you failed to address my homeless people analogy. Can a homeless person go into your house and start stealing stuff to "rebuild" his life?
THis is unrealistic. You can't have functional plans for every possible disaster you can imagine. There are just too many possibilities and too many problems. Besides which, no matter how much you plan, reality will never fit into whatever your perfect plan might be. It's easy to say after the fact that we should have been ready, just like it was easy after the fact to say we should have been ready for a 9/11 type disaster - but you just can't prepare for every possible contingency. What makes these things disasters is that they are simply impossible to stop and properly prepare for. It's easy to say now that this was "inevitable" or whatnot, but New Orleans has been around for 200 years and never had a situation like this. To reasonably always be prepared for this with 3 days of notice, and every other situation like it, would bankrupt government.
For most potential natural disasters I would agree with your points. But N.O. is a special case that has been studied by universities and federal agencies for DECADES. It has been widely common knowledge to everyone there that the city's unique position of being surrounded on all sides by bodies of water at HIGHER ELEVATIONS than the city itself is a deadly precarious disaster waiting to happen. The potential loss of life in this situation was too great to not take special measures and SPECIFICALLY PREPARE for a lethal hurricane event. Only last year Hurricane Ivan just missed N.O. in the last hour so it's not like this situation had caught anybody off guard. I think it was reasonable and unbankrupt-like to appropriate funds for planning, testing, and maintaining a reserve of assets (rail, task forces, etc) for mass evacuation procedures. We are spending hundreds upon hundreds of billions in Iwreck. Surely, we could have spent a little to move actual Americans 20 miles west out of the city bowl when a Cat 4/5 hurricane was approaching.
interesting. . i guess a change of clothes is just too much to ask I mean it ain't like all their clothes are not just floating down the street or something As someone stated . . most of the folx there are people that could not afford to leave chances are they don't have flood insurance Pawning those 42' TVs and DVD players etc maybe their only source of income POST clean up Not condoning. . but understanding. Rocket River
I think a change of dry clothes is very important. If you are cosntantly in wet clothing, you will get very, very sick. But that's not what was depicted in the story posted in the FIRST post of this thread: Yes, I'm sure this guy is just there to get a fresh change of clothing.
the government has limits and instead of wasting money into that sinkhole of iraq it should be using it to ensure that americans can remain safe. regardless. may god help the people in NOLA and in iraq.
Fair point - I don't really know enough about the history of the situation. I've read a lot of people saying "it was predictable", but I didn't know there had been studies and all that making this relatively unique.
Major, here are a few links from previous years on N.O.'s precarious position: "In fact, FEMA has named a hurricane striking New Orleans as one of the top three most likely and most devastating disasters that could happen in the U.S." http://www.hurricane.lsu.edu/_newsbriefs/hefmtg.html [the actual headline]"A major hurricane could decimate the region, but flooding from even a moderate storm could kill thousands. It's just a matter of time." http://www.nola.com/washingaway/thebigone_1.html "What if Ivan Had Hit New Orleans? ....Residents who did not have personal transportation were unable to evacuate even if they wanted to. Approximately 120,000 residents (51,000 housing units x 2.4 persons/unit) do not have cars. A proposal made after the evacuation for Hurricane Georges to use public transit buses to assist in their evacuation out of the city was not implemented for Ivan. If Ivan had struck New Orleans directly it is estimated that 40-60,000 residents of the area would have perished." http://www.colorado.edu/IBS/hazards/o/nov04/nov04c.html "THE *CREEPING *STORM" http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0603feat.html You can find dozens more studies, reports, and articles like these from scientists, professors, civil engineers, govt agencies, city officials, meteorologists going all the way back to the 60's.
holy ****. everything those sites predicted happened. What if Ivan Had Hit New Orleans? New Orleans was spared, this time, but had it not been, Hurricane Ivan would have: * Pushed a 17-foot storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain; * Caused the levees between the lake and the city to overtop and fill the city “bowl” with water from lake levee to river levee, in some places as deep as 20 feet; * Flooded the north shore suburbs of Lake Pontchartrain with waters pushing as much as seven miles inland; and * Inundated inhabited areas south of the Mississippi River.
I didn't call you a racist. I called you a jack-ass. Put it this way, if you were a politician and got caught saying what you said when you didn't know the mike was on... we'd be hearing your resignation speach next. It was a rude thing to say any way you slice it. Tell yourself what you need to if it makes you feel better. It isn't outrageous. 1. The article talks about "oppressed people." Generally, whites aren't regarded as oppressed. 2. It is pretty well known that NOLA is predominately a poor minority area. 3. It's been all over the news. So my "assumption" is not random. If you skirt your way around all three points then you are reasonably uninformed about the situation. All the more reason you shouldn't be spouting off insensitive remarks about people stealing birth control Dude, just admin it was a dumb thing to say. If you want to hold to your opinion that looters are evil people fine. But lets not engage in comments about people stealing birth control. I'm not mad at people for taking clothes for their family. I don't beleive everything I read verbatim particularly in the early stages of a major event. The media is more often than not WRONG about their initial assessments. Not condoning it. I'm just chosing to phrase it a little more sensitively than you. I didn't condone American troops fighting in Vietnam but I also didn't refer to them as baby killers. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. I haven't heard reports (YET) about people looting from homes. But as the chaos builds, I wouldn't be surprised. The whole situation just plain sucks when things get that bad. Homeless person stealing? If that homeless person was on the street for involuntary reasons, I wouldn't be surprised if they occasionally steal. I am not saying it is right. But desperate people do desperate things. I ask you, why does the wealthiest country on earth have such a significant homeless population? Ask yourself that!
this is true. my buddies and i were shocked when we went to mardi gras a few years ago.... stopped at a walmart on the east side - every person there outside of us was black. and the place was packed. total mind f*ck.
Right. You're the one who brought race into this. Don't tell me this post doesn't directly imply that I made a racist comment: If you weren't calling me a racist, why did you bring up race? So if you didn't intend to call me racist, why did you bring up these points? If you want to back pedal at least don't leave mud on your shoes. There are many people that are oppressed in this country, including both economic and racial minorities. Don't be shocked, but *gasp* black people aren't the only racial minorities in this country. It doesn't really matter what the racial makeup of NOLA is. I don't care if it is 100% Black, Chinese, Jewish, Hispanic, etc. I'm actually the one being colorblind here. You're the one who keeps dragging race in here as an issue. Why would knowing about NO's racial makeup affect my comments that some of the looters are scum? I think their scum not because they are black or white, I think they are scum because they are costing human lives. I would say the same if they were white. I didn't say the media is always right. But you've offered no other evidence for me to consider. MSNBC was quoting the city councilwoman and the deputy chief of police. I think I'll believe what they say until I see evidence that proves them wrong. Ultimately you cannot dispute that some of the looters are hindering rescue efforts and making things worse for other victims. People keep talking about how we should "understand" the tragic circumstances. Well, I'll bet there are plenty of poor people in NO who are NOT arming themselves and looting the stores for television. Save your understanding and sympathy for those who truly deserve it.
AP News Via Yahoo Officials Helpless Against Looters By KEVIN McGILL, Associated Press Writer Wed Aug 31, 4:38 PM ET NEW ORLEANS - With law officers and National Guardsmen focused on saving lives, looters around the city spent another day Wednesday brazenly ransacking stores for food, beer, clothing, appliances — and guns. Gov. Kathleen Blanco said she has asked the White House to send more people to help with evacuations and rescues, thereby freeing up National Guardsmen to stop looters. "Once we get the 3,000 National Guardsmen here, we're locking this place down," Mayor Ray Nagin said. "It's really difficult because my opinion of the looting is it started with people running out of food, and you can't really argue with that too much. Then it escalated to this kind of mass chaos where people are taking electronic stuff and all that." Amid the chaos Wednesday, thieves commandeered a forklift and used it to push up the storm shutters and break the glass of a pharmacy. The crowd stormed the store, carrying out so much ice, water and food that it dropped from their arms as they ran. The street was littered with packages of ramen noodles and other items. Looters also chased down a state police truck full of food. The New Orleans police chief ran off looters while city officials themselves were commandeering equipment from a looted Office Depot. During a state of emergency, authorities have broad powers to take private supplies and buildings for their use. At one store, hordes of people from all ages, races and walks of life grabbed food and water. Some drove away with trunkloads of beer. At one point, two officers drew their guns on the looters, but the thieves left without incident. One of the officers said he is not going to arrest anyone for snatching up food and water. One young man was seen wading through chest-deep floodwater, carrying a case of soda, after looting a grocery store. John Matessino, president of the Louisiana Hospital Association, said he had not heard of anyone breaking into the hospitals, but he added that thieves got into the parking garage at one hospital and were stealing car batteries and stereos. Officials tried to balance security needs with saving lives. "We're multitasking right now," said New Orleans Police Capt. Marlon Defillo. "Rescue, recovery, stabilization of looting, we're trying to feed the hungry." New Orleans' homeland security chief, Terry Ebbert, said looters were breaking into stores all over town and stealing guns. He said there are gangs of armed men moving around the city. At one point, officers stranded on the roof of a hotel were fired at by criminals on the street. The Times-Picayune newspaper reported that the gun section at a new Wal-Mart had been cleaned out by looters. Authorities said an officer was shot in the head and a looter was wounded in a shootout. The officer and looter were expected to survive.
If you ask me, you are the one that brought race into this. Again, if you made that comment as a politician, you wouln't have a job right now. Period. Sugar coat it how you want. I don't see life as a black and white situation(no pun intended) ...as apparently you do ...since you give absolutely no wiggle room to the events in NOLA. Sometimes in life there are grey areas. I'm not calling you a racist because I don't know you. But you comment sure stunk of racism. If you want to categorize that in your black/white world, then put it in the category of racist. But that's not what I'm saying. Somebody linked in this thread that NOLA is nearly 70% black. If you've ever been to NOLA without blinders on, you'd instictively know that. You and I are talking about two different things. 1. We are talking about your birth control statement. 2. We are talking about the looting situation in NOLA. You are mixing those up. You refuse to admit that it was a dumb thing to say...despite your feelings for the looters. You made that comment out of anger. If you hate looters...fine. Just settle down on the derogotory marks that are irrelevant to the issue. Birth control has nothing to do with looting.[/quote] Good for you. But they mostly aren't white. I've never disputed it. But looting remains a fact of life in such events. Deperate people do desperate things. Get over it. Jesus says all people deserve to be loved. But apparently you know better.
So your response is that if we ASK you, you'd be correct. Wow, what a foolproof debate tactic. "If you ask me, I'm correct." No wiggle room? Almost everyone on this thread (including myself) agrees that it is ok to take water and food and other emergency items. What we do disagree on is whether taking things like guns, jeans, and jewelry is "understandable." Yes, I made a "Darwin award" type of joke at the looters' expense. And if I were directing that comment to all looters, including those looting to survive, then you'd be right. I'd be a complete ass. But I was directing my comment towards looters who are victimizing their neighborhood and costing human lives. I think they deserve all the derision I can muster. Think about it. Price gouging is a bad thing in general. But price gouging during a time of crisis makes it worse, because it may end up costing human lives. The same with looting for profit. Arming yourselves and robbing folks is usually a bad thing. Doing it after a hurricane makes it even more despecable because you are hindering rescue efforts and victimizing people who have already lost everything.
We are all entitled to our opinions. My opinion, is your comment was senseless and insensitive. If I were there, I'd be after guns and jeans too. In a state of emergency, self protection and clothing are necessities. Well, your comment did not specify anybody in particular. You said "they" should steal birth control. I guess you know in your heart what you meant by that comment. But the way it came it, it sounded completely inappropriate. So thank you for the admission. I'll drop it then. Price gouging is typically when an outsider takes advantage of a victim. In this instance, everybody involved is a victim. So appearances may not be what they appear. Personally, I'll with hold judgement. Now if people were driving in from Texas to go looting, that would really be a sad state of affairs. But in this instance, they are all victims. On NBC tonight a woman was caught by a journalist on camera. Journalist: "That isn't right." Looter: "I need something to cover my feet so they don't get cut. What am I supposed to do?" I'm saying before throwing around harsh and broad reaching judgements ...such as the ones we've heard from you and other ...you might want to sit back and wait for more info. Yes there are bad people ...there always are. Saying that "looters are the scum of the earth" is too harsh. I know, that's what you've been saying, right? Well, you've refined your wording as this thread progresses. Initially, the comments were very broad and vague. Nope. They're not. Again, quite trying to make it into a black and white situation. All desperate people don't do bad things. But lots and lots and lots of desperate people do things ordinary people woudn't do. Some of those people you don't love may surprise you one day if you give them a chance. Humans are not born bad ...they're made by their circumstances.
I still believe the opportunistic looters are scum. But perhaps this was NOT the time and place to joke about them, even if they do deserve it. It's like making fun of Hitler during a Holocaust memorial. Hitler deserves the derision, but I can see if people think that it is not the time for it. So I apologize to that extent. But it doesn't sound like you're upset at me because this was a bad time to make the joke. You are mad at me because (1) to you it sounded racist, and (2) even if it weren't racist, I should be more understanding of the looters because I didn't just lose everything to a hurricane. Ah, but if the other looters weren't shooting and robbing, you wouldn't need a gun to protect yourself. (See the article I posted above.) I grew up in one of the most diverse neighborhoods in America: Southern California. I currently live five minutes from USC, two minutes from Chinatown, and three minutes from Miracle Mile. I'm Chinese but have made lasting friendships with people of all races. I've marched for AA and volunteered for minority and homeless legal clinics. You don't know this about me, so I don't blame you. I just want you to know why I'm so upset that someone calls me racist. My response is not that vague given the context of the article posted in the first thread. But I can see how you can misinterpret my comments. What really bothered me is that you automatically assumed I must KNOW I'm refering to a certain minority group because we must all have watched the same news broadcasts that you have. If you are all about seeing things from other people's perspective, why are you so keen on imposing your perspective on me? But you also admit that "All desperate people don't do bad things." Not everyone is out there looting firearms and beer. You can count on it. Con artists from all over the country will be converging in NO, offering fake insurance claim forms and fake construction estimates. Yeah, I hate those people too. Jesus, help me.
