Right or wrong, the government is currently completely powerless to stop the looting. It has no legitimacy in New Orleans right now. The only thing they can do right now is rescue people, evacuate people and try to stop the flooding. Law enforcement is not even desirable at the moment. Are the looters trying to get in to loot or to find refuge from the reported rising flood waters?
Chunky, judging by your level of understanding, I seriously doubt you could put Tinkertoy pieces together. I've read the entire thread, and I don't see where krosfoyah is defending their actions at all. Care to point out some examples for the rest of us?
You're missing the point. Understanding why they are looting does not mean you condone what they are doing.
exactly what i was thinking. i haven't commented until now in any of the katrina threads. it all seems so surreal, like a horror flick. yes, people knew this could happen, but the reality of the devastation won't be known for some time. i don't know what to think or what the future holds, i just hope they can get all the survivors out quickly. i'd pray if i thought it would do any good. fortunately, i no longer have relatives in NOLA but i feel for those that do. also, i tend to agree with juan that the looting is the least of their problems. crescent city, i'm hoping for the best.
Uhhh yeah. It's blatant racism when white people are described as "finding" stuff in stores and blacks are described as looting.
I think some people (not you) are making wild conclusions from this. These are two articles from two different writers from two different news agencies. If the same writer used looting and then finding in different instances, you'd have something. But for all we know, one party is using looting to describe all circumstances and vice versa. I'm sure if you looked around enough at different sources and different pictures, you'd find pictures of white people "looting" and minorities "finding" things as well.
(wrench) Has anyone against the black looters/white finders (I am disturbed by those captions), downloaded songs/movies/copyrighted material? Can anyone say strictly that the theft in NO is wrong (some to the extent that they should be shot in the head) and also defend downloading copyrighted materials?
Thousands of American citizens were abandoned there by their govt and leaders, left to wade out a catastrophic storm on their own. It is likely that many have perished in the flooding. It is certain that nearly all have lost their homes. And this side-story of looting seems to top all agendas for attention. In America, property and possession is King.
Also, for the people who say news agencies shouldn't show images of torture in gitmo & abu gharib and images of collateral damage (innocent civilians killed by US soldiers) because it hurts the cause, do you think that news agencies shouldn't show images of the looters because it could potentially prevent people from donating to the disaster or that it could hurt our status to the outside world?
Ain't it just like the night to play tricks when you're tryin' to be so quiet? We sit here stranded, though we're all doin' our best to deny it And Louise holds a handful of rain, temptin' you to defy it Lights flicker from the opposite loft In this room the heat pipes just cough The country music station plays soft But there's nothing, really nothing to turn off Just Louise and her lover so entwined And these visions of Johanna that conquer my mind In the empty lot where the ladies play blindman's bluff with the key chain And the all-night girls they whisper of escapades out on the "D" train We can hear the night watchman click his flashlight Ask himself if it's him or them that's really insane Louise, she's all right, she's just near She's delicate and seems like the mirror But she just makes it all too concise and too clear That Johanna's not here The ghost of 'lectricity howls in the bones of her face Where these visions of Johanna have now taken my place Now, little boy lost, he takes himself so seriously He brags of his misery, he likes to live dangerously And when bringing her name up He speaks of a farewell kiss to me He's sure got a lotta gall to be so useless and all Muttering small talk at the wall while I'm in the hall How can I explain? Oh, it's so hard to get on And these visions of Johanna, they kept me up past the dawn Inside the museums, Infinity goes up on trial Voices echo this is what salvation must be like after a while But Mona Lisa musta had the highway blues You can tell by the way she smiles See the primitive wallflower freeze When the jelly-faced women all sneeze Hear the one with the mustache say, "Jeeze I can't find my knees" Oh, jewels and binoculars hang from the head of the mule But these visions of Johanna, they make it all seem so cruel The peddler now speaks to the countess who's pretending to care for him Sayin', "Name me someone that's not a parasite and I'll go out and say a prayer for him" But like Louise always says "Ya can't look at much, can ya man?" As she, herself, prepares for him And Madonna, she still has not showed We see this empty cage now corrode Where her cape of the stage once had flowed The fiddler, he now steps to the road He writes ev'rything's been returned which was owed On the back of the fish truck that loads While my conscience explodes The harmonicas play the skeleton keys and the rain And these visions of Johanna are now all that remain
How have they been abandoned by their govt or leaders? And have you actually been watching the news? Looting is a <b>side</B>-story as you noted - it's not anywhere near the top of anyone's agenda. However, lawlessness is a legitimate story. When it prevents rescue efforts and puts more lives in danger, it's an important thing to deal with.
Thousands were abandoned and left to wade out the storm in their own homes the day before the storm hit. This is because no adequate planning was ever drawn up to make sure that every resident there would be evacuated from the bowl when it was required. The city issued a 'mandatory evacuation' with full knowledge that tens of thousands would not have sufficient means of transportation to evacuate on their own. City, State, Federal govts and leaders have known for decades about the potential death trap that this city bowl posed in the event of a strong hurricane. They should not have sat on this timebomb for years without forming tested and rehearsed evacuation plans for everyone there, including those who do not own personal vehicles. The looting and rescue missions would not even be issues right now if all these people had been moved just 20 miles west to higher ground in the 36 hours advance notice before the storm hit. Naples, as one example, has elaborate evacuation planning in place in the event of a Vesuvius eruption. They even have host families around the country already assigned to potential refugee families. Even villages in Papua, New Guinea have better evacuation planning than what was displayed in N.O. A government's first concern must be the protection of its people's lives and there is no excuse for leaving all those people to chance in this storm. Now as far as agendas go, perhaps this issue should be a few rungs higher than 'looting/finding' - both here and in the media: Did New Orleans Catastrophe Have to Happen? 'Times-Picayune' Had Repeatedly Raised Federal Spending Issues By Will Bunch * PHILADELPHIA - Even though Hurricane Katrina has moved well north of the city, the waters may still keep rising in New Orleans late on Tuesday. That's because Lake Pontchartrain continues to pour through a two-block-long break in the main levee, near the city's 17th Street Canal. With much of the Crescent City some 10 feet below sea level, the rising tide may not stop until it's level with the massive lake. New Orleans had long known it was highly vulnerable to flooding and a direct hit from a hurricane. In fact, the federal government has been working with state and local officials in the region since the late 1960s on major hurricane and flood relief efforts. When flooding from a massive rainstorm in May 1995 killed six people, Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA. Over the next 10 years, the Army Corps of Engineers, tasked with carrying out SELA, spent $430 million on shoring up levees and building pumping stations, with $50 million in local aid. But at least $250 million in crucial projects remained, even as hurricane activity in the Atlantic Basin increased dramatically and the levees surrounding New Orleans continued to subside. Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars. Newhouse News Service, in an article posted late Tuesday night at The Times-Picayune Web site, reported: "No one can say they didn't see it coming. ... Now in the wake of one of the worst storms ever, serious questions are being asked about the lack of preparation." In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to a Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness. On June 8, 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; told the Times-Picayune: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us." Also that June, with the 2004 hurricane season starting, the Corps' project manager Al Naomi went before a local agency, the East Jefferson Levee Authority, and essentially begged for $2 million for urgent work that Washington was now unable to pay for. From the June 18, 2004 Times-Picayune: "The system is in great shape, but the levees are sinking. Everything is sinking, and if we don't get the money fast enough to raise them, then we can't stay ahead of the settlement," he said. "The problem that we have isn't that the levee is low, but that the federal funds have dried up so that we can't raise them." The panel authorized that money, and on July 1, 2004, it had to pony up another $250,000 when it learned that stretches of the levee in Metairie had sunk by four feet. The agency had to pay for the work with higher property taxes. The levee board noted in October 2004 that the feds were also now not paying for a hoped-for $15 million project to better shore up the banks of Lake Pontchartrain. The 2004 hurricane season was the worst in decades. In spite of that, the federal government came back this spring with the steepest reduction in hurricane and flood-control funding for New Orleans in history. Because of the proposed cuts, the Corps office there imposed a hiring freeze. Officials said that money targeted for the SELA project -- $10.4 million, down from $36.5 million -- was not enough to start any new jobs. There was, at the same time, a growing recognition that more research was needed to see what New Orleans must do to protect itself from a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. But once again, the money was not there. As the Times-Picayune reported last Sept. 22: "That second study would take about four years to complete and would cost about $4 million, said Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al Naomi. About $300,000 in federal money was proposed for the 2005 fiscal-year budget, and the state had agreed to match that amount. But the cost of the Iraq war forced the Bush administration to order the New Orleans district office not to begin any new studies, and the 2005 budget no longer includes the needed money, he said." The Senate was seeking to restore some of the SELA funding cuts for 2006. But now it's too late. One project that a contractor had been racing to finish this summer: a bridge and levee job right at the 17th Street Canal, site of the main breach on Monday. The Newhouse News Service article published Tuesday night observed, "The Louisiana congressional delegation urged Congress earlier this year to dedicate a stream of federal money to Louisiana's coast, only to be opposed by the White House. ... In its budget, the Bush administration proposed a significant reduction in funding for southeast Louisiana's chief hurricane protection project. Bush proposed $10.4 million, a sixth of what local officials say they need." Local officials are now saying, the article reported, that had Washington heeded their warnings about the dire need for hurricane protection, including building up levees and repairing barrier islands, "the damage might not have been nearly as bad as it turned out to be." http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0831-04.htm
That's not surprising at all. I suppose the black lady was carrying a large bag so it looks more like looting. Not probably the case though. Subtle racism is probably not fueld by outward hate but still not excusable.
Since when did the government abandon these people. The government is not some omnipotent entity - it has limits. Looting top the agenda for this thread because of the thread title. This thread is about looting. Are you implying that Euros wouldn't loot?
The govt may perhaps have its limits b/c it is currently more concerned with spreading hundreds of thousands of troops around the world in wars of conquest. However, just a few thousand troops with agency help and access to local railway lines would have probably been sufficient to transport these tens of thousands of looting terr'ists out of the bowl area and to higher ground facilities prior to the storm. Yes, I read the thread title. Unfortunately you have not read my posts. You know, the ones that point out that this looting is just one of the minor and inevitable results of having left tens of thousands of people to face an ensuing and widely expected flood. Ergo, the thread itself can be explained by the govt's utter failure in preparing for and handling this disaster. Most Euros aren't black, so they would only 'find' stuff.
Actually, we had major floodings (rivers, not quite as catastrophic as in the US right now, but still major floodings) in Germany, too, about three years ago and again this year. Nobody looted.
