At that point in the game, a flagrant should not have been called. There is no way a flagrant or a technical should impact a game in the final minutes. But, technically it was a flagrant IMO, since Shaq brought both hands down on Steve. When's the last time someone tried to block a shot with two hands?
Yeah, DaneB. The the only reason that play helped us win is because Phil Jackson argued and got the T. That one extra point helped us get into OT and ultimately to the win. The headline really should've have read "Zenmaster loses control...loses the game."
the truth is, it was a foul. the rockets would have gotten 2 points out of that anyway, and they didn't score on the ensuing posession anyway (right??). so, if phil kept his mouth shut, we would've only gotten 2 points instead of 3, and there would be no complaining.
It should not have been flagerant, just a good ole fashioned hard foul. However, I will sheepishly take it. DD
Damn Jeff, you beat me to it! Also, did anyone notice that Steve's block on Fisher's breakaway layup was also clean (they called a foul)? And how about the out-of-bounds call at the end of regulation? Phil and Shaq complain about one bad call, and don't mention the five or so that went in their favor. Same thing they did against Sacramento... At least I haven't seen Kobe b**** about it much yet. He has some semblance of class.
agreed.....it is ridiculous, 9 championships later, to hear phil jackson b**** at anything that doesn't go his way
yeah, as much as kobe cries/whines/b****es to the refs during the game, i almost never hear him complain about the officiating costing them the game (on the very rare occasion they actually get a bad call) so at least he's not as bad as phil/shaq in that respect.
i posted this in another thread (http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49960): i thought the whinging about the flagrant was a little over the top, especially since we had that many bad calls going against us. the worst 3 in the game (IMHO): -shocking out-of-bounds-off Yao-not-shaq call in the final secs of regulation. -mobley-hit-kobe-on-the-3-attempt when it was a clean miss -no offensive foul call on shaq (i was amazed they actually called ONE this game) when he knocked cato out of the way for the easy dunk i thought a flagrant foul was/is called if there is unneccessary, and excessive, force used while fouling, or if the defender goes for the player instead of the ball. shaq took steve out with a two straight armed block attempt across the face that slid down and hit the ball (at least that's what it looked like to me on most of the replays). i think that warrants a flagrant type 1 call. intentional? no, but potentially dangerous, hence the call.
Most of the Lakers fans on their boards were complaining about how crucial the flagrant foul was with over a minute left in OT. But before that with only 21 seconds left in regulation and the Lakers were ahead by 2 points, Shaq clearly knocked the ball out of bounds but dick Bavetta gave it to the Lakers to force the Rockets to foul Kobe. It should have been Rockets ball and we would have a chance to tie it or win it by 3 pointer in regulation. Luckily Kobe missed one FT and Steve sank a 3 pointer for the tie. Had kebe made both freethrows, we would be complaining how Bavetta robbed the Rockets the victory. I thought that this call was more crucial than the flagrant foul call timewise. It looks like the Lakers were getting most of the call in regulation and then it evened out in OT. Nevertheless, it was a great win for the Rockets to stop LA 5 game winning streak and keep our winning streak alive.
Wow, we're really in the Lakers fans heads. They're over there saying the officials wanted the Rockets to win and are now calling Yao overrated, saying he'll never be on Shaq's level, that Yao's numbers were overblown (he almost had a freaking triple-double), saying Shaq dominated. Ok. And they're bragging "The Rematch is Feb. 18th" or something like that. Yeah Yao isn't on Shaq's level, but they can't wait for the rematch! There are several Lakers fans who know about this board, I wonder how many were just waiting to come over here and brag that Yao sucked.
Concerning the flagrant, it shouldn't have been. Steve drove right into Shaq, Shaq reached with both hands and covered the ball with both hands BEFORE he even touched Steve. With the ball covered, Steve protects it by bringing it back like he always does. Steve's momentum then pushes his face into Shaq's arms, Steve hits Shaq, and obviously, falls on his a$$. As much as I like Steve and the Rockets, I believe Steve is just asking for it. He constantly drives into defenders, no matter who it is, and half the time, he has to be praying for a foul. Sometimes he'll make an easy shot, but usually it is very difficult, or near imossible. He gets a lot of foul calls, but often turns the ball over, or makes a desperation outlet pass. But the main thing is, he tries to do too much in times like this, and I'm afraid he's going to get hurt-which almost happened earlier this season. I'd much rather him get the other 4 players involved, or maybe the others should step up. I'm glad for the win, but Steve and Cat arent' going to score 70pts a game consistently. Sorry for the straying off topic. Oh, yeah, Shaq did plenty of elbowing to clear off Yao for his dunks. I winced myself on one in particular.
Well... not really since with flagrant foul, Rockets still keep possession of the ball after the free throws. Plus the technical foul, that is potentially a 5/6 point play. IMO, the flagrant foul should not be called, especially at the final minutes. But then again, the flagrant foul call evens out with the wrong out-of-bound call. Nobody should whine about it.
Could someone point me to the official NBA definition of a flagrant foul? I googled and couldn't find it.
That is not correct. On the play in question, we did not score on the possession after Steve hit the 2 free throws. Therefore, the flagrant foul call did not hurt the Lakers at all. There is no doubt there was a foul. Steve got his two free throws and hit them. The Lakers were not hurt by the flagrant foul. They were hurt by the technical foul their coached received for arguing the call. The whole play cost them 3 points.
Matter of factly, yes it didn't hurt the Lakers much since we did not score after the free throws. But what I am saying is the call can potentially damage Lakers for a maximum of 6 points (if Rockets make a 3 pointer after the free throws). Still, Lakers might have the opportunity to score some more points if they get the ball possession right after Steve's free throws (which is the case if it's only a personal foul) and win the game. The flagrant foul still plays a role in Rockets win. But like I said before, the bad call evens out the previous bad call against Rockets. So nobody should whine about it.
That was a questionable flagrant foul, but after Francis' free throws, Kobe tripped Francis causing a turnover on the possession (which nullified the effect of the flagrant foul). The refs could have called a foul on Kobe in that situation, but chose to swallow the whistle instead. It looked as though the refs were making up for what appeared to be a bad call by allowing Kobe to get away with the trip and "forcing" the turnover by Stevie. So, in the end, the Lakers weren't jobbed by that flagrant foul at all. I think the refs handled that situation quite fairly.
