i'll take pippen and grant, and pippen and rodman and harper, over gasol and odom anyday of the week, and twice on sundays. I like what gasol has done, but he's not a prime time player, and truth be told, his offense diappeared against sa. he playd duncan well and rebounded but they needed his offense.
All Kobe has to do is grab 3 more rings and I'll put him in the same category as Jordan. *** Shaq. Jordan had Pippen, who was himself a MVP and multiple time all stars. Also, Rodman was an upgraded version of Wallace. So this argument "Kobe had Shaq" is stupid. It's like saying well, "Shaq had Kobe". No way in hell Shaq could have led those Lakers to 3 championships if he played with a different co star. People base too much on those finals MVPs. That shows they didn't watch the Lakers play.
I agree with the thread starter and like you said Kobe still has time to catch him since he's only 30. I still don't think he will though, Jordan has accomplished things that no other player or very few have done. One season he averages 32pts 8reb and 8ast shooting 53% from the field. He has 5 consecutive seasons of shooting over 50% fg which is crazy for a guard, 10 scoring titles (7 in a row), 5 MVP, 6 Finals MVPs....I could keep going but I think you get my point.
I agree with you on the Magic, Bird, and MJ bit. Bird and Magic were great, but were good at what they do. MJ is just flat out good. Magic may be the greatest point guard, Bird may be the greatest small forward, but Jordan is the greatest player. It wasn't til recently that you have to say "arguably" the greatest player because of Kobe. Yes Odom is a very poor man's Pippen. But if you let Odom into the league with Phil Jackson, I've got a feeling that he would be much better. Odom's had some games where he's just hard to stop. His skillset is different from Pippen's because of his size, but I think they both have close to an equal impact in Phil Jackson's system. And any arguement is pure speculative content when it comes to comparing Jordan to Kobe. Shaq not being able to win a title on his own during his MDE form is VERY questionable, but I'll respect the possibility he wouldn't have won without Kobe. Just like the arguement that Kobe won his rings earlier than Jordan. Well, Jordan didn't enter the league the same time Kobe did. However, Kobe's immaturity on the court is well documented, both through watching the games and through the opinions of former teammates and his own coach. I remember Karl Malone and Gary Payton saying something negative about Kobe during that soap opera when Shaq and Phil Jackson left. Now we can say that the opinions of his former associates are just as speculative, then we have no foundation for a resolution to the debate. But just watching young Kobe Bryant, even with Phil Jackson, you can see he placed an emphasis on himself over the team. Jacking up bad shots over double teams was his forte back then. During the championship years, he wanted to be the man. Shaq and Kobe's disagreements were visible on the court. Players mature in different ways. It took an injury to make Hakeem realize he can pass to his teammates. It took being cut from your HS bball team for MJ to get his drive and focus. I think Kobe's turning point is when Shaq and Phil Jackson left to mature. Kobe was thrown into a winning situation at a very young age. The difference between Kobe and MJ is that Kobe won championships at a very young age. MJ was losing at the same age. The losing kept MJ yearning for a ring, while the winning kept Kobe "spoiled" for rings. Thus, the drive and focus are what seperates the two players apart. He's real smart, but his focus isn't on Jordan's level. Will Kobe get there? He's showing some signs. We'll just have to enjoy the show and see.
AND bring Shaq back, while we are dreamcasting it'd be hard not to like those mothra focker's if they did that and won a ton
Everyone watched the Lake Show. Shaq was flat out dominant, and some believe he was the best player on the team. Was Pippen, Horace, or whoever better than Jordan during his run? The arguement is not stupid at all. It is a good arguement that will keep this debate alive. But I've argued that point enough in this thread.
Garbage. LeBron's midrange game is average, at best. His perimeter shooting is nonexistent. The only thing he has a leg up on Kobe is his passing and, as you can see, Gasol & Co. had moments where they went cold and Kobe stepped up. I doubt...no seriously doubt..that LeBron, as of right now, can take over a game like that.
Some people have said that Kobe needs to win 3 more championships... I maintain that he still needs to win 6 more Finals MVPs. Good luck with that. And for good measure, he should take a two year hiatus in the prime of his career.
The East was terribly watered down that year. The Cavs would've been out in the first round in the West. Like I said, it remains to be seen whether Lebron has the burning desire to keep improving his game. When asked recently what his ultimate goal was, he answered that he'd like to be a billionaire. That's the main difference between Kobe and Lebron - Lebron's chasing Warren Buffett while Kobe's locked on Jordan.
Seriously!! Kobe is the best player on the planet right now but he's not at MJ's status... not yet anyway.. if he continues to dominate for the next couple of years and win a couple more rings then the issues is up for debate.
Wow... Here's my take on this, and I grew up in Chicago and live in LA right now, so I have watched my fair share of both Jordan Bulls games and Bryant Lakers games. On their drive to win/work ethic/taking over games/etc. I'd say Kobe and Jordan are pretty close. Offensively prime Kobe was a little bit better than Jordan, and Jordan definitely has Kobe beat defensively, although both are good all-around. Skillset wise I can't see how you would put Kobe over Jordan or vice versa, they are as good as it gets for a SG with no real weaknesses, and both have the mental aspect of the game down (unlike other good SGs like Vince Carter or T-Mac who might have the talents but don't have the other intangibles that Jordan/Kobe have) On their accomplishments, most of you guys forget that for the first 6 years in the league, Jordan never won anything and was chided for the same reasons Kobe was chided for the last 4 years or so: he did not trust his teammates. Most of you guys don't realize Jordan didn't win his first championship until he was 28 years old. He finally trusted his teammates (exact same drama as Kobe, where he even thought players like Pippen were useless, but grew to learn how to play with him). Kobe is now 30 years old, and he finally grasped that concept now (two years later than Jordan however). I'm going to take a guess and assume that Kobe wouldn't take two years off like Jordan did in his prime, which means if Kobe can keep this up for 6 more years like what Jordan did (his last chip was in 1998 when he was 35), then Kobe can be up there with Jordan in GOAT status. His time with Shaq can't be compared fairly to Jordan because Jordan didn't have the luxury with having a teammate of Shaq's caliber. Right now, Kobe's chapter on his legacy has just started imo and what he does from now on will determine whether his legacy will be the GOAT or not. For now, he's just a player with as good of a skillset as Jordan and probably the only one there, and its up to him to deliver the goods to match Jordan for GOAT status.
we do realize all this but we remember episodes of pippen totally punking out against detroit. its not jordan finally trusted his teamates, its his teamates finally caught up to him kind of like kenny, vernon, and otis thorpe
yes, i actually meant it more of that fashion... his teammates weren't up to par so Jordan had no chance but to ballhog it all day. once it was obvious Pippen/Grant weren't scrubs, Jordan started winning. same with Kobe, once Smush Parker/Kwame Brown became Fisher/Gasol it was obvious that Kobe had some teammates he could work with. the parallelism of Kobe to Jordan is so uncanny... the only difference between Kobe and Jordan is Kobe's first few years where he was lucky enough to have Shaq to taste success earlier than Jordan.
What's with the "all he has to do is get 3 more titles" BS? First, it isn't easy to just go grab 3 titles. I don't care who is on your team. That becomes even more difficult when you consider that Kobe's game will probably start to drop off pretty drastically in another 3 years or so. Second, NO, getting 3 more titles doesn't make him even with MJ. He needs 4 more MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs, 8 more scoring titles, a Gold Medal and on and on and on. There isn't enough time for him to come even close to accomplishing all that. He won three titles as the second best player on the team so I'm not even sure how to compare those to the one's Mike and the Bulls won. It's also interesting to see that Shaq was the most dominant player on the planet during those titles yet he is dismissed in this thread like he was Robin and Kobe was Batman. Shaq was the engine on those Laker teams just as Mike was on the Bulls Championship teams. Look at the stats. Certainly, winning is the goal but if Kobe retires with 6 rings and isn't even close to what Jordan did statistically or if he doesn't get near the individual accolades how the hell will he be even with Jordan? The more you look at what Jordan did the more obvious it becomes that Kobe doesn't have enough basketball left in him to have a legit shot at reaching MJ's level.
How is this a "fairytale" story? He b****ed about wanting to be traded, then said he didn't want to be traded and then said he wanted to be traded again. Not to mention he basically crapped on Bynum during the off season in favor of getting Jason Kidd in that infamous Kobe Video with the two fans. Guess who played a big part in Lakers success this year? Andrew Bynum. He also got 15 techs this year. But its Kobe, when he gets a tech, hes showing passion. When Artest or Sheed gets a tech, hes a crazy nutcase. Lets not act like he has been a saint this entire ride. You didn't see too many players from "yesteryear" b**** and moan like nowadays. This is nothing special. As good of a player he is, this is what he is suppose to be doing. He finally has everything he wants so lets see if he will get that championship. Maybe I'm missing something? I just don't see whats so historic and special. Did he break some kind of record? Sorry, but Pippen was never a MVP. Try again. Pippen also was never a dominant low post presence like Shaq was with the Lakers. We're talking Shaq in his prime, NOBODY could stop him. O'neal > Pippen and its a not even debatable. Oh yeah, and Jordan never ran Pippen out of Chicago. Who knows how many titles Kobe and Shaq could have won if Kobe stopped being such a drama queen and just played basketball?
The 94 Bulls almost made east final, Sub Kobe from current Lakers? They are lottery bounded. Everyone is talking like MJ had nobody to help him.
If your boy wants to challenge MJ for his reign as GOAT then he's so far behind he doesn't understand MJ is hands down Top 3 and over 60% of the nation would say #1. 6 Finals MVP's speaks for itself. No one else has more than 3 finals MVP's. MJ has the most 50+, 40+, 30+ and 20+ games in the PLAYOFFS and has the highest scoring average ever in the season, playoffs and finals and all of them are above 30 ppg. He also never lost a series with Homecourt Advantage which every other all time legend has. http://www.usatoday.com/sports...pree-team_x.htm http://www.answers.com/topic/nba-records The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as: Highest PPG Average: 30.12 Most seasons leading league in Points: 11 Most scoring titles: 10 Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91 Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road. As far as the playoffs go, here are a few things that stuck out in my mind: Playoffs Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games) 33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games) Most Points in a Game 63 by Michael Jordan Most 50 Point Games 8 by Michael Jordan Most 40 Point Games 38 by Michael Jordan Most 30 Point Games 109 by Michael Jordan Most 20 Point Games 174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times) These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion. Quote:Wilt Chamberlain (lost in ’60-61, ’65-66, ’67-68, ’68-69, ’72-73) Magic Johnson (lost in ’80-81, ’85-86, ’89-90) Kareem (lost in ’72-73, ’73-74, ’76-77, ’80-81, ’85-86) Larry Bird (lost in ’79-80, ’81-82, ’82-83, ’84-85, ’87-88, Oscar Robertson (lost in ’61-62, ’64-65, ’72-73, ’73-74) Jerry West (lost in ’68-69, ’72-73) Shaq (lost in ’93-94, ’94-95, ’03-04) Hakeem (lost in ’84-85, ’86-87) Duncan (lost in ’00-01, ’03-04) Bill Russell (lost in 1958) - however he was injured MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record. What does that mean, well he was the only superstar to never lose a series in which his team was considered the favorite and better team. All the other legends lost series. Also consider the following: Is 18% a good percentage? In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage... Pretty awful right? Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%... Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks... Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score. That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six... 10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!! I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all. Here are the playoff top games. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c....vidual_points/ Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances Player Team Opponent Total Date Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986 Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962 Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962 Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992 Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994 Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988 Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993 Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997 John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973 Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993 Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001 Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960 Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969 Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965 Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001 Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967 Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987 Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953 Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958 Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950 Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964 Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970 Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975 Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986 Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988 Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989 Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000 Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001 *4 overtimes ^overtime This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here: NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR 1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47 1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48 1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL 1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50 1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51 1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52 1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53 1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54 1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55 1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56 1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57 1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58 1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59 1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60 1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61 ............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61 1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62 1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63 1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64 1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65 1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66 1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67 1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL 1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69 1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70 1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71 1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72 1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73 1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF ............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74 1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75 1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76 1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77 1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78 1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79 ............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79 1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80 1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81 ............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81 1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82 ............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82 1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83 ............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83 1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84 ............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84 1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85 ............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85 1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86 1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87 1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88 1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89 1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90 1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91 1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92 1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93 1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94 1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95 1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96 1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97 1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98 1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99 ............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99 ............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99 ............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99 1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00 ----- ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2 Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0 ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8 Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6 Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg. He continues Here are some other things to consider. http://www.basketball-referenc...t/glossary.html MJ has led in Offensive Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 1x. Quote:OWS Offensive Win Shares (available since the 1977-78 season in NBA); please see the article Calculating Win Shares for more information. Offensive Win Shares are credited to players based on Dean Oliver's Offensive Ratings 1.) Offensive Win Shares 1984-85 NBA 28.7 (3) 1986-87 NBA 29.0 (4) 1987-88 NBA 39.6 (1) 1988-89 NBA 42.7 (1) 1989-90 NBA 44.3 (1) 1990-91 NBA 40.6 (1) 1991-92 NBA 34.2 (1) 1992-93 NBA 34.1 (1) 1995-96 NBA 38.5 (1) 1996-97 NBA 37.3 (1) 1997-98 NBA 28.6 (2) NBA 413.5 (1) Career 413.5 (1) 2.) MJ has led in Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 1x Quote:WS Win Shares (available since the 1977-78 season in NBA); please see the article Calculating Win Shares for more information. A Win Share is worth one-third of a team win. Win Shares are assigned to players based on their offense, defense, and playing time. Win Shares 1984-85 NBA 40 (3) 1986-87 NBA 43 (4) 1987-88 NBA 58 (1) 1988-89 NBA 59 (1) 1989-90 NBA 59 (1) 1990-91 NBA 56 (1) 1991-92 NBA 51 (1) 1992-93 NBA 50 (1) 1995-96 NBA 57 (1) 1996-97 NBA 52 (1) 1997-98 NBA 45 (2) 3.) QuoteW Player wins; the formula is PGm*PW%. Player wins is an estimate of the number of wins produced by a player for his team MJ has led in Player Wins 7x, and has finished second 3x including his rookie season. Player Wins 1984-85 NBA 13.2 (2) 1986-87 NBA 15.9 (1) 1987-88 NBA 17.4 (1) 1988-89 NBA 16.8 (1) 1989-90 NBA 16.0 (1) 1990-91 NBA 15.8 (1) 1991-92 NBA 15.2 (1) 1992-93 NBA 15.4 (2) 1995-96 NBA 15.8 (2) 1996-97 NBA 14.8 (1) 1997-98 NBA 14.2 (2) No other player in the GOAT discussion has dominated like that in all formats (Season, playoffs and finals). We don't know what Wilt's win shares, player wins would have been, so we can only go by what we know and have, but despite that, Wilt only won twice and only once as a dominant player in the league. Good enough to be 2nd or 3rd, but not the GOAT especially when one player has dominated like MJ did in the season, playoffs, and finals.
I dont know...kobe is a great player(best in the world right now) and i think he is nearly as skilled as MJ offensively.....but he is not close to all the accomplishments MJ has and he doesn't have enough time imo. B/c of the Lakers having Pau handed to them, i just don't see this as a big deal.....kinda waters it down for me...if that trade never happened, the Lakers might have made second round, most likely not since No Bynum either. If Lakers win it all this year, it wont be that big of a deal to me and it hardly puts him an inch closer to MJ and he has a very very very long way to go. I also agree Kobe could not have won with Pippen. Kobe had Shaq, one of the most dominant Centers of all time. Look at his freakin monster avg's, regular season and playoffs during the 3 peat.
