well he doesn't pass hakeem with just one title with odom and gasol next to him b/c i think the 93-94 title gives hakeem a huge chip in any argument with any player (otis thorpe as the 2nd best player?) and hakeem's defense was so huge, and shaq isn't ahead of hakeem. and even if he is, it's not by enough that you can be a level above hakeem and still slide in a level under shaq. that's just crazy.
I'm laughing my ass off at all of this. You're acting like any of these players were the #1 options on their team. No one is arguing that MJ is the greatest player of all time. People are just saying that he had more help than most recongize on his team. Imagine that, Dennis Rodman, Horace Grant, Steve Kerr, and Tony Kukoc didn't lead their teams to titles...
uhh, the guys next to a superstar aren't supposed to be good enough to lead other teams to titles. geez, that's a bit of a standard. but pippen did win 55 games and make it to the 2nd round and finish 2nd in MVP voting w/ no replacement for jordan, horace did play PF on another team that made it to the finals (meaning jordan wasn't the only one who could make that happen), rodman played defense and rebounded for 2 title teams in detroit, and who gives a damn if kukoc got the bucks to the finals, he was a 6th man on the bulls and not every team goes to the finals. the fact grant, rodman, and kerr all played significant roles on other title teams is impressive in and of itself.
I heard the Grizzlies owner wanted to sell the team but the NBA wouldn't approve...unless they sent Pau Gasol to the Lakers first.
ummm...wow, thanks for making that asinine assumption that I was saying those guys were number 1 options. That was a reach but you managed to leap to that conclusion. Well done sir. I'm saying some of you are overrating Jordan's teammates like Jordan had to kiss the ground for having the teammates he had. Pippen wouldn't be the player he was if he didn't have Jordan to make him raise his game. Nor the other teammates of Jordan's Bulls years. Try this scenario: Put Kobe (circa MVP Kobe) on the Jordan Bulls championship teams. Do the Bulls win 6 still? I honestly have doubts, maybe some of them. But Jordan in his prime on the 3peat Lakers? I can say Jordan can replicate Kobe's production and the Lakers still 3peat.
see my reply to SirCharlesFan. btw, your argument is weak and I already disputed most of yours in my original post. thanks for trying though.
Weak, and wrong on both accounts. Agreed. I wouldn't say Kobe is better than MJ, but he is definitely in his league. I mean Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom have accomplished jack squat on their own. They both thrive being 3rd options on a team, and on the Lakers, Kobe is option 1 and 2 which makes them both comfortable. Kobe's ability to raise the level of his teammates play has improved drastically over the past couple of years. You think calling out Andrew Bynum in the offseason was for nothing? Jordan was someone who could be idolized on and off the court, so people like Dave 78 have trouble looking past the "fakeness" that has been associated with Kobe since he pushed Shaq out of LA. But the truth is, looking at what they do on the court, they aren't so different. Kobe is right on MJ's heels.
Teams couldn't defend Jordan like they defended Kobe, due to having a playmaker like Pippen and illegal zone defenses. When you look at basketball arsenal and basketball IQ, both are pretty lethal down the stretch.
Hmmm...let's see..we'll put Kobe on a team with a worse co-feature player (Pippen) and put Jordan on a team with a better co-feature player (Shaq) and compare the results! It's obviously perfectly equal.
Don't let greatness intimidate you. Kobe is close and you are relying on a quick decline to put an end to the Kobe vs MJ arguments. I wouldn't be so sure of that.
Being older than me doesn't prove anything about your judgment being more valid than mine. I have watched Hakeem and Jordan through their peaks, and I know hunger down the stretch when I see it. Shaq was great, but everyone who watched the Lakers in the championship years knew he was a liability down the stretch. Open your eyes old man, the blinders will hurt you!
Thanks for not overly criticizing my post haha The rules are different, but the general impact on each player is about even. Kobe has to play against zones, but he has the advantage of the touch fouls on the perimeter. MJ had either one-on-one or double teams on him, but he got hammered more back then because of how physical the East was (The Jordan Rules). I won't argue the arsenal nor the IQ. They're almost exact replicas. The edge I give MJ down the stretch is the way he handled the situation. MJ seemed to have more confidence. You can almost see the play before it happened. He always played for the basket instead of the foul. Kobe shows this as well, but not all the time. Maybe it's taking Kobe a bit longer to mature, but I think his immaturity (on the court only) in the past has him trailing Jordan as far as their legacies are concerned. Jordan seemed to let the game come to him, and then he'd make the right plays. Kobe seems to force the issue sometimes. I'm not saying Kobe's way is wrong, he's a great player whom I'd love to have on my team, but playing out the game seems a little more successful than forcing a shot.
Well then, you actually proved my whole original point then genius. Oh, what was that point you say? That the statement "Oh Jordan had the benefit of having better teammates over Kobe" is BS. Jordan made them better teammates is more like the true statement. Edit: The statement I was refuting was "Jordan had the comfort of ALWAYS having teammates he could trust in the 90's." I guess next argument will be "oh that's just Pippen I said, what about the rest of Jordan's teammates". I'll let you do the legwork of going down the roster.
