Duncan hiding at pf during shaq's domination is more than enough to have him lower than dream. Add in the fact he came onto a 60 win tank team with a HOF is absurd. I'm not saying he's not a great player, but over the last 6 years he hasn't even been the best player on his team.
Wilt was better than Bill Russell, this ridiculous rings argument is a recent concoction, which given the players on Russell's team says very little about the two of them.
I don't know if we can have a totally objective discussion on this subject. If you look at their career numbers, they are extremely close in almost every category. Duncan is a better passer. Hakeem was better in steals and blocks. Duncan is a little better in advanced stats. And he has better ORtg and DRtg, probably because he has had better teams throughout his career than Hakeem did. BUT, when it comes to playoffs, Hakeem was clearly superior. My feeling is that Hakeem was the more talented player. His best was clearly better than Duncan's best. But Duncan is a more consistent player, and has been blessed with a steady stream of good teammates.
No, Russell's GOAT intangibles, defense,and rebounding cancel them out. Rings may be overrated, but I can't accept a player being top 3, or even top 5, without multiple rings, especially given Wilt's temperament. Besides, what's the argument for Wilt over someone like Shaq, who from my perspective is generally underrated? Both were kind of dumbasses who clashed with teammates and as a result were journeyman, both were ridiculous physical specimens which had pretty much never been seen before and the league basically had to write the rules to handle them. But one won three times, the only player to do it in the modern era besides Jordan ( and had one of the greatest teams ever in the 2001 Lakers), and one put it together once.
i think the main difference is athletism. I think duncan did a lot with so much less than hakeem. Of course thats not dream fault, and he is probably the better player. No doubt his peak was higher than duncans... but duncan had been so steady over his career. You can make an argument for both. And Duncan is a pf, not a center, and he played on a great era of pfs, and he dominated. Garnet, Nowitski, Webber pre injury, late karl malone, Brand pre injury, wallace, etc etc. There u got 3 of the 5 better pfs and he was still ahead of the pack, so calling his big me n era weak its not true, it was weak at the c position only. And for those of you who said that dream domianted shaq, thats true... but shaq was young. 2000 shaq would destroy any player of any time, including dream. He was miles ahead of his version of 1995. So much stronger and heavy, not even hakeem would stand a chance. Still ill take my hakeem before duncan, but to me its really close.
My question is that what the heck does your argument that Duncan "hid" from Shaq have anything to do with his rankings compared to Dream?
Hakeem is the better individual player. But I think Duncan adapt to his team mates and caoches better. I almost think Duncan can be dropped into any team and he will immediately play efficiently without affecting his team mates's play. So in my eyes both are equally great players, and there is no need to determine who is better.
I don't think, in the history of the NBA, one MVP dominated another MVP player while both in their primes, especially in the playoffs. What Dream did to Robinson, I've never seen before that, or after. Hakeem would be triple teamed and still score. I don't see that with Duncan. Also, didn't Amare torch Duncan for over 40+ a few times including the playoffs? I don't know how much Duncan guarded Amare, but I don't know if anyone goes off for over 40 multiple times on Hakeem's team whether they be a C or PF. He controlled the paint. There's no contest really, I think a Robinson vs Duncan argument is better. Robinson didn't have the longevity obviously.
Duncan didnt guard amare, it was an aging robinson who did it. Duncan played of doble and triple teams from 2002- 2005. After that he declined a bit with knee injuries.
Look at this site http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ It contains the RAPM for the past several years (regularized, adjusted plus-minus). Not only does it show that Duncan has been by far the best player on his team for several years, it shows that he's still been a top player in the NBA, and the main reason that SA has been so good for so long.
I don't care if this question was asked on a Rockets forum, the Spurs forum, or asked on the freaking moon. The answer is simple. Hakeem. There is NO debate, there is NO blinking. Hakeem was on another planet. Duncan is great, greatest of this generation, but who exactly did he go through? Who? Meanwhile, Hakeem went through the Lakers dynasty, took The Celtics to 6 games, was 5-1 against the Bulls during their first 3 peat, beat four 50+ win teams, back when that was actually an accomplishment. He swept the Magic, he made a HOF in Robinson look like a fool. Name me ONE instance, where Duncan made a bonafide HOF look like a complete D league scrub. You won't find one. Heck, try to find any other instance of one HOF player making another one look so inept at basketball. Horry, Ellie have both said Hakeem was the best. They PLAYED with Duncan, Hakeem and Shaq (Horry). Shaq has said Hakeem was the best. Duncan is great, but let's be real here. Hes 80% Talent, and 20% Front Office. That front office NEVER gets the credit it deserves. How many times have we seen teams screw up team chemistry, or didnt sign their own FA, or trade one away. Ask OKC how that Harden trade worked. That front office drafted well, AND kept their core guys in place What did the Rockets do? We drafted well, then sent them packing for an aging Charles. Imagine The Spurs trading Manu and Parker for an aging superstar. Do they win 3 more titles? No sir. Folks, it's simple. One guy is #7 on All Time Steals. The other guy is nowhere even close.....and both guys are CENTERS. A CENTER is top 7 in steals. #1 in blocks. Oh, and btw, after his little fit in 90-91, when he came back all full of religion, he went through cramping, deydration, blurry vision. He couldn't eat until the sun went down, his liquid intake was minimal at best. Yet he STILL decimated the best centers of all time. I'd take Hakeem, Horry, Cassel >Duncan, Manu, Parker any day of the week, and twice on sunday
You are talking completely out of your ass. 2 year prime???? You have zero clue about the Rockets. If not for Stern's ban for life witch hunt, Rockets would have contended against the 80's Lakers and Celts for championship titles year after year. It takes a team to succeed and a young Olajuwon had his disintegrate around him after destroying the Showtime Lakers and giving the Bird & his Celtics a finals to remember. Pull up your big boy pants, your agenda is showing.
There is no argument that Hakeem is the better individual player, but a player's success is ultimately determined by his team's success. Duncan is one of the most accomplished player. I believe Duncan makes his team mates better too. Imagine if Ginobili, Parker have been playing with Carmleo, Kobe, etc, they may not be the players they are today. Both Hakeem and Duncan are great players. I don't feel there is a need to look into every micro details to distinguish the two. While this board is attacking Lin Only Fans, I find too many people put individual stats above team accomplishment. This is not to say Hakeem is not a great team mates, but Duncan is the bench mark for best team mate.
right on. Tony Parker might go down as the most underrated player of all time. At least he did win a Finals MVP over Duncan, once.
