I do think this is just a theoretical question at this point. In reality, I THINK the Texans are preparing to move Carr, one way or another. You don't come out to make these comments about Carr unless you're planning on moving him. This wasn't trade rumor stuff where there was already a team linked with the Texans. This was the Texans management coming out and preparing everyone for what I think is inevitable now.
Far it be it for me to post a Richard Justice article..but.... http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/4555045.html Two certainties: Carr is exiting, and Texans are wiser By RICHARD JUSTICE Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle Be patient, friends. The Texans are going to get it right this time. Write that guarantee down and hold me to it. I know what you're thinking. You're wondering why David Carr is still on the roster. You're starting to get that familiar uneasy feeling that they're going to blow it again. They're not. Trust me this once. These Texans aren't the same Texans who made all those boneheaded decisions. For four years, the Texans had a perfect storm of bad decision-making: inexperienced owner, incompetent general manager, befuddled coaching staff. It's easy to blame Bob McNair for allowing Charley Casserly to run the franchise into the ground, but a lot of the rest of us believed in Casserly for way too long as well. An upgrade at GM From the moment McNair realized he'd made a mistake, he began turning the Texans in another direction. Some of you can't quite grasp that fact. They're different, way different, than they were at this time two years ago. They were once dumb. They're dumb no more. General manager Rick Smith is really good at his job. He's thorough, competent and innovative. He inherited a mess. Even with an outstanding 2006 draft class, the Texans still have holes at quarterback, running back, left tackle, defensive line, cornerback and safety. There will be the usual debate about who they should draft. It's a silly debate because they can use almost any good player. Just don't pick another stiff. Gary Kubiak mostly got it right last year while working with Casserly. Now he has a general manager who is smarter and shares his vision of what a good organization should be. A matter of when, not if As for Carr, this is where patience will be required. He has played his last game for the Texans. In the end, nothing else matters. Smith will have to create a market for him. Even that might not be enough. Five years after being the first pick in the draft, Carr might fetch no more than a mid-round pick. The Texans would like to have the thing settled by the time offseason workouts begin in March. It also could go right up until the NFL draft on April 28. Regardless, there's virtually no way Carr will be on the roster when training camp begins. He's a sad story on many levels. He was the franchise's first pick and, until this year, never really had a chance to succeed. The Texans never protected him or coached him up, never put enough talent around him. No matter. Carr still should have shown more. In 76 NFL games, he has yet to play a stretch that makes you think, "Hey, he's the guy." Last season was the killer. He finally had some talent around him. He didn't have enough talent, but few quarterbacks are going to have a perfect situation. Have you watched Peyton Manning play the last couple of years? He's under significant pressure at times, too. He simply speeds up his reads and delivers the ball quickly and accurately. It's time for a divorce. Carr needs to get somewhere and have the chance to jump-start his career. The Texans need to get someone they trust. That someone apparently will be Jake Plummer. He's 32 years old and has played in 143 NFL games. In three seasons with Kubiak as his quarterback coach in Denver, he was 32-11 with three playoff appearances. It's impossible to make the case that Plummer is a great player. About all he has done consistently since getting to Denver is win. He's one of those rare people whose intangibles are at least as impressive as his physical gifts. Does that sound like anyone you know? Considering all this franchise has gone through, getting a winner ought to be enough. As with most teams, it's going to come down to defense, running the ball and pass protection. No quarter- back operates in a vacuum. Plummer has shown he can win if he's placed in the right circumstances. That's something Carr never did. It's an indication of how little faith fans have in this franchise that they've begun to rip Plummer before the Texans have even traded for him. If it's not Plummer, who should it be? Sage Rosenfels? He impressed everyone in the organization with his work ethic. He also looked good in limited playing time. If he hadn't suffered a broken hand, he surely would have been the starting quarterback the final month of the season. Who else? Jeff Garcia? He'd be an upgrade, but Kubiak probably will be more comfortable with Plummer. As for the guy many fans really want, he's not available. It's time to move on from Vince Young. He's more likely to be forgotten if the Texans get it right this offseason. And they will.
Let me say this...I will be really excited about Texans football if all of this transpires. Plummer, for all his faults, has been exciting. It's interesting. It's not so corporate.
and here's where i am: you may very well be right. but i'm not willing to give up a thing to bring jake plummer here. nothing. not a draft pick, not a single dollar of the salary cap - zilch. if he wants to sign-on as an unpaid intern, bring 'em on. otherwise, if jake plummer is the best you can do, i'd rather stick with carr. jake plummer is a mediocre QB. carr may be as well - in fact, he has been the past two years far more often than not. but i'm not lobbying to bring him here, to give up anything to acquire him - he's here already. focus your energy, effort and money elsewhere. btw, for those scoring at home, i'm proud to announce i'm very close to locking in on my next group of people who will likely make me contemplate suicide by AIDS - the jake plummer revisionists! did anyone read dickie justice's column this morning?: (emphasis mine) i'm literally, well, in this context, textless. btw, conveniently left out of justice's feverish recasting of jake plummer as a winner is his actual playoff record: 2-4 with 6 TDs and 11 INTs. but man, oh man, does he have intangiables!!! and since you can't measure them, how can dickie be wrong? kill.me.with.death.
Carr is an average QB Plummer is an average QB The math doesn't add up. I am OK for getting Plummer if it gets rid of Carr, but Plummer does nothing for me, we will be wanting to get rid of him soon enough if he comes here. I still think Sage can be as successful as Carr or Plummer here, but the sad thing is he is also an average QB My definition of average is that they have skills but can't translate the skills to being a good playmaker and winner. Lots of QBs can hand the ball off and make good throws. But good QBs make plays that AFFECT the outcome of the game- ie they WIN games with their play. Please Texans, develop a strategy to build a Super Bowl contender, stick with it and turn this mess around. I am still sooooo frustrated that we passed the most important part of the strategy in last seasons draft.... I sure need to get over it, but it was sooooo obvious.....arghhhhhhhhhh (Will I feel better now? )
Plummer has been a playmaker. Remember, he did win a playoff game with the Arizona Cardinals. As my friend from Denver says, "Plummer will will you some games with his arm. He'll also lose you some games with his arm. Carr will not win you some games with his arm. Carr will still lose you some games with his arm."
As he always does, Justice overplays his case and goes beyond reasonable opinion to drivel. I'm curious as to what conversations he's had that makes him so sure David Carr is gone, and what thought process he went through ethically to justify announcing to his readers what would transpire based on those conversations. I'm also curious what he considers Plummer's intangibles to be, since there are in fact such things as intangibles. The numbers point to the fact that he's no upgrade at all from Carr performance-wise. But what about in the locker room? This statement is what got me the most in the latest Justicedrivel: "Plummer has shown he can win if he's placed in the right circumstances. That's something Carr never did." Really, now? Two beefs: 1) So, Plummer is a product of his environment and doesn't rise above it? OK, he's mediocre. Check. And, we have one of those. 2) DC "never did"? Please show me when he was "placed in the right circumstances." Disingenuous statement, which along with gratuitous hyperbole and overall smugness are trademarks of Justice's drivel. Overall, the point Justice had in mind isn't all that unreasonable. But as usual, he overplays it, gets some facts wrong, and in general (as usual) the article is a steaming pile of crap.
Plummer > Carr Both < Vince But, even though it is a year late, it is the right move to get rid of the underacheiving Carr. The guy simply has all the tools, but none of the heart. DD
BS. You have no idea what's in his "heart". In fact, I'd surmise that as far as heart and guts he's pretty solidly above average based on all the hits and the getting back up, running back out there, and never throwing his teammates under the bus. My guess--and it's a guess, not a dogmatic statement like others have made (see the difference, Ric?)--is that he lacks in terms of leadership and in terms of field vision at the speed of the NFL game. (Lots of guys are great in college but can't hack it at the more intense NFL pace.) Whichever it is, he's not going to cut it here. I wish him the best. Great guy, mediocre NFL QB.
i've yet to hear anyone in the local media suggest they think carr will be back next year. particularly in light of Smith's comments the other day. honestly, the only people i hear anywhere suggesting they think carr will be back are on this message board. correct me if i'm wrong, though...is there a voice in the media suggesting he'll be back. i can't think of one of the local radio guys who thinks that. some of those radio guys are writers with the local paper as well. plummer was viewed as an intangibles guy when he was the QB of the first AZ Cardinals team to win a playoff game. remember he had some a bunch of 4th quarter comebacks. that's where that reputation came from.
That article was pretty bad and I am curious about what he knows as well. The Texans have got to be making a change otherwise it will be really ugly if Carr is still around after all this. I would think they would be reining in the media if it wasn't true. Good news for most, bad for a few.
i have only guesses about his desire/heart. did you read this from hatemavs4life's post in the other thread on this subject, though: "No arguments here. In fact, just saw a segment on 13 eyewitness sports where Bob Allen quoted an anonymous source within the organization and one who is really close to the decisionmakers said Carr has the talent to be great, but NOT the heart!" I didn't see this report...and I'd like to know more about it.
In a perfect world (ha!) this is how I view the QB position- good-great QB's are the ones you turn to when you need them to lift the team, make a play, sustain the drive, score, comeback, play smart, raise their play to carry the team, inspire and lead. It's the guy you can depend on...when you need him the most. most of them have skills, but reading the defense, making the right decision, performing at their best when they have to, confidence, smarts... I like the way Brady, PManning, Brees, McNair (the old one), McNabb, VYoung do it. These are the best in my opinion with Hasselbeck, Rivers, Palmer making up the next tier. Romo, Leinhert, Roethlisberger, Cutler are young guys with potential. Guys like Delhomme, Losman, Green, Garcia, Garrard, Plummer, Bulger can be successful in the right conditions but they are average- I don't expect them to carry their team. I think we might luck out and get a future QB in either Stanton or Kolb, but it will probably cost at least a 3rd round pick.
winning a playoff game makes you a playmaker? quick, someone tell trent dilfer - all these years, he thought of himself as just a game manager. the guy's a playmaker! btw, plummer threw more INTs than TDs that year in arizona and posted an impressive 66.1 QB rating in the win. overall that postseason, he threw 2 TDs and 5 INTs. i smell playmaker! you're friends with bill walsh? oh, you mean this is just some random guy like the rest of us? i mean, no offense, but, so? besides, even takign the info at face value, i don't, for the life of me, understand how a guy who essentially cancels himself out (he'll win a few; he'll lose a few) is something people would actually welcome. especially if he eats up cap space and costs you a draft pick. i heard drayton mcclane ordered mcnair to trade carr... care to guess why they had to make so many 4Q comebacks? i think players are going to eventually want to leave the texans because of carr's obvious lack of heart. [yeah, i do[/] see the difference...]
