Kidd or Payton wouldn't use this as an excuse because they would get their teammates more open shots or easier dunks/layups.
Sorry I mean Kidd or Payton (i.e. true great PGs) would get their teammates more open shots or easier dunks/layups if their jump shots are falling. Great PGs are supposed to assist the shooters. Not let the shooters help them get assists.
I agree with u on the Kidd and Payton part..... true Francis is not a TRUE PG, he is just a different kind of PG..... like I have been saying.... Francis is learning.... he might never come close to kidd's assists number, he is just not that kind of PG..... give him some time..... he is progressing.... not as fast as u guys wants it to be but he is progressing......
The problem with everyone here is stereo-typing our players. How much of a SG is Kobe? Does he handle the ball less than Steve? Does he set his teammates up less than Steve? DavidS, You seem to be perfectly content with Jason Kidd's 8.4 assists amd 3.6 TO's. This is the #1 or, AT WORST, #2 PG in the league. But when I tell you that it would be incredible for Steve to average 8 assists and 3 TO's, you tell me that should be the NORM? Are you out of your mind? Those are Jason Kidd numbers, but Steve is 100x the scorer. I want to acquire a PG too, but not for a SECOND do I think it will affect anything Steve does. We'll run the same things, he'll bring the ball up just as much, and dominate the ball just like he always has. THIS IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE. Steve is a Guard than can play the 1 or the 2 just as effectively. What Steve gains in relinquishing PG duties, he would lose just as much by playing much bigger players. What's important with Steve is how the other Guard in the backcourt compliments him.
Sorry again I meant if their jump shots are NOT falling. And in response to Glyyde, I agree that SF's progressing. But I think my target for him is not unreasonable and should be easily achievable if he can just become a little bit smarter. The thing I think preventing SF do so now is that sometimes he tries to do too much and makes the game more difficult than it actually is. When he drives to the hoop, why not just dishing to YM for an easy dunk/layup? It's an easy assist and his very own assists count can actually go up pretty quickly. And it saves energy too. But instead too very often, he tries a difficult reserve layup until 4-5 men hacked him down. Can't he understand that it would expand more energy of his? And with less energy, his TOs would surely increase and defense would be affected too. BTW, Glyyde, are you that YM hater in chatroom? Why do you hate YM?
Where do you get Francis's 100x the scorer Kidd's from? If he's, then Kidd's also 200x the passer and 300x the decision maker Francis's! Anyway, Kidd averages 19.6 ppg, 8.4 apg and 3.6 tpg this season. It should be the kind of numbers Francis aims for. And I am not even demanding the numbers of Payton who averages 20.9 ppg, 8.8 apg and only 2.4 tpg plus his great defense.
I am the guy from chatroom but I am not a Yao Ming hater...... in fact, I actually likes everyone in this Rockets team. I am just trying to say in the chatroom is that it seems that ppl here got lots of complain on Francis and when he do something bad, everyone will flame him like mad..... but when Yao do something wrong, ppl will just let it go and say he is a rookie..... talk about professional basketball experience, Steve and Yao is just about the same...... is not that easy for Steve to change all of a sudden to a pass first PG..... he has been in Houston 3 seasons being the first choice on offense, that shows that Rudy has been teaching him to score like he did..... but now things change, strategy change for both Yao (who is also the number 1 choice last time in Sharks) and Francis, it is something like a new beginning for both of them...... give them time, they will gell, dun jump on Francis and say he is a veteran or what.... both of them are playing a brand new game here!!! o....btw carayip, I am as much a Yao supporter as anyone on this board. I am a chinese too btw and I am really proud for Ming to be able to play in NBA and shine.... just that I am a Francis supporter also, and I just don't understand why the double standard here in this board.......
This thread is totally misinterpreted by some senior members here, well, it also like that. The point original poster made is the arguement, "no shooter around excuse" by Francis, doesn't stand. However, for some reasons, some people here always interpret it as Moochie is better PG than Francis. That's pathetic.
Let me point out, first of all, that 19.6 ppg is BY FAR Kidd's career high in 10 NBA seasons. Outside of this season his career high is 16.9ppg, and his career average is 14.7 ppg. Also, I'd like to add that his career FG% is .405 from the field. Let it be known: Jason Kidd is not half the offensive player Steve Francis is today. There's no comparison. Francis is the SUPERIOR offensive player. Please, don't destroy your credibility by trying to argue that fact. But let's not kid ourselves, Kidd is by far the superior passer. But I wouldn't say he blows Francis away. You MUST MUST take into account how much more Steve Francis scores. It's to the point where, if you consider assists and scoring combined, then Kidd may or may not have the slight edge. But Francis is the better rebounder. But then again, Kidd is the better defender. What I'm trying to say is this: I would HATE to see us waste Steve Francis' talent by trying to turn him into Jason Kidd. For Kidd, it doesn't matter, because he's not as good a scorer. He's barely decent. But we have to take advantage of Francis' scoring abilities, and that's NOT by making him a 2-Guard. That's by surrounding him AND Yao with complimentary players. Obviously, Moochie did a great job today. He put some doubts into your mind. But why doesn't Moochie do this when Francis moves to the 2? If Francis is a superior 2-Guard to Mobley, then Mooch should be just as effective when playing with Steve right? WRONG. Truth is, Memphis is just horrible at taking care of the passing lanes. They have a defense based solely on effort, and effort is not what makes a good defensive team. You have to KNOW how to lpay D, and Moochie came in tonight, and was given some things to work with that Francis wouldn't be given. I suppose you expect Francis to average 25ppg, 8asst, 7reb, 2stl, 1blk, 50% FG, 40% 3-pt, and 2 TO's? Come on, he's not Micheal Jordan or Kobe Bryant. If he can balance 23ppg, along with 7.5 assists and 3 TO's, we'd be contenders. BTW, it is PERFECTLY acceptable to have anything better than a 2.5:1 assist-turnover ratio.
I don't want to turn Francis into another Kidd either. I just use those numbers to point out that for him increasing his assists while cutting his TOs are totally reasonable and can be done. Actually I don't even care about numbers. I just want my PG to make smart decision with the ball and run the team offense efficiently. BTW, Francis is not a better rebounder than Kidd. Kidd's a career 6.3 rpg player, same as Francis.
I have never, ever subscribed to the "Rockets don't have any shooters" theory. I do think it's a PG's responsibility to get the ball to a teammate in a position and location on the floor where they are comfortable and also early enough in the clock that they may pass off if the shot is not there for them. In a recent Nets game on League Pass, the broadcast team used an on screen "stop watch" on Jason Kidd for his fastbreaks. They displayed the time from when he grabbed a rebound to when he finished the play...4.6 seconds later (twice in a row). If there were a way to subtract the TO's made during a break, I'll bet Kidd's TO# would go down significantly. Many mistakes can be made at that velocity. If both the team and Francis are committed to him playing PG, then they both are going to have to be creative in how to use a S1P2 type of PG. (And I don't consider "small ball" with Moochie at PG as very "creative"). Something I noticed watching Gary Payton in his first game as a Buck. A game in which a mediocre EC team defeated the WC 4th seed on the road (and Portland is playing well). When Payton dribbles (and I assume Kidd does as well), he is watching the rest of the floor. This contrasts to Francis who is watching his defender and trying to (inefficiently IMO) set them up with multiple xover moves. Again, this is a by-product of S1P2. I don't "hate" Steve Francis, but have reservations about how far the Rockets can go using the current format. And that's why I agree with the original point of this thread. It may have been the Grizz...but Gasol and Miller are ROY's, Battier is a solid defender, Swift is much better than I thought he was and JDubb is playing under control for Hubie. The Grizz lack depth and are a big man away from being a good team. The Rockets have been inconsistent for over a month and spotted the Grizz an All Star and still spanked them! This needs to be noted not passed off as insignificant (not that a pass off is ever insignificant ).
Yes, Moochie played a terrific game tonight (with the exception of those airballs...YIKES! ). But I don't understand, Steve has gotten 9 assists or more on multiple occasions this season. So I don't see what you mean by this statement: "I mean if Moochie could have 9 assists with this team, Francis, a much much more talented player can have it too if not more. " Uhh..yeah...we already know he can get nine assists or more in a game. In fact, he's done it 8 times this season. The problem is being able to do it consistently.
This is the thing I notice as well. I feel very annoyed every time I see my PG doesn't watch the floor when he's dribbling. And I don't even know if Francis can ever change this "habit".
It's Steve's job to get teh ball to teammates where they can score. If they were so badly inconsistenet they would not be in the NBA
Let it be known if winnign was just about scoring points then there would be a lot of street ball players who would be studs in the NBA. THe NBA is not just a individuals's scorind. Look at Dominique Wilkens vs. Larry Bird. Nique was an offesnive machine who could never consistently find a way to get his team to win. Yes he was 10x the athlete Bird was but do you know what. In 2 years all people will remember Nique for is dunking. Bird is a legend because he got his team to win. Argue what you want about Bird's bad one on one play defensively but he played great team defense (meaning he was smart enough to know which way to let his guy go becaus ehe knew where a guard was waiting to strip the ball or where McHale or Parish had help) If Francis is great because of STATS just come back and talk about him in 15 years. By then everyone will have forgotten about him unless he makes his team better.
That's a ridiculous arguement. Moochie had nine assists against a terrible road team. So what? It's only one game. If Mochie did this for 10 to 15 games without Steve, it might have some validity, but it makes no sense to generalize based on one game. If every game is the same, how do we lose to Utah at home, and beat them by 30 on the road the next night. That doesn't make sense.
Definitely! We need a "W". No one care about our players' stat. Francis is definitely skilled and athletic, but he is really immature. Physically he is great, but he really needs some mental training to raise his basketball IQ. Find some way, Rudy!
