I'm pretty sure I've heard Lance Z on 1560 talk about this kid and say that it was obvious in practice he was talented and could never understand why he was cut.
To be fair, he was part of the final cut-down that year and was apparently a pretty tough cut. Considering he was undrafted, to last that long indicates the team had at least some inkling that he had potential. And who knows... maybe they learned from that experience - in fact, Arian Foster could very well be a beneficiary of what they learned. Hopefully, with a guy like Phillips now in place, the Tramon Williams's of the world won't get out the door.
...'to be fair'? Is any final cut not 'tough'? Do we need to sugar coat this turd? It's a zero sum game. The Texans effed up and pushed a pro bowler out the door, which is made even worse by the fact that what retained ended up being one of the worst secondaries in NFL history. There's plenty of things worth trying to excuse for this franchise, this is not one of them, and trying to link this failure to Arian Foster's rise in some nebulous way is pretty wonky even for message board banter standards.
Ric, why do you feel the need to defend the team on every issue? I'm being serious here. I didn't slam anyone, just made the point that Lance was on this guy before he became this stud going to the SB and you have to rush to defend the team.
[rolley eyes head exploding gif] You realize there isn't actually a factual disagreement here, right? What we take issue with is Ric going well out of his way (unprovoked) to make excuses for the Texans... especially on something that is an issue as black and white as this. I've defended the Texans plenty in my day, but if there was ever an issue and a time they don't deserve anybody covering for them, it's now... and it is not unreasonable to give somebody crap for doing so... and it has nothing to do with "agreeing all the time". [sunglasses tongue smiley]
I don't think I'm defending them - in fact, my mentioning Phillips as hopefully being able to prevent this from happening in the future is an absolute indictment of the inexperienced coaches he's replacing. What I am doing is providing the context often lost when posters presume something is an easy black and white issue, especially when its being used to transparently further their biased agenda: “The Texans suck! They released PRO-BOWLER Tramon Williams!!! What idiots!!!!!” IMO, I think it's extremely unfair to rip a franchise for not recognizing Pro Bowl talent in an undrafted rookie. I mean, he did spend the rest of 2006 on the Packers’ practice squad and didn’t make his first start until week 17 of the following season. This was not some slam-dunk, no-brainer All-Pro. And I think it’s disingenuous to make it appear that EVERYONE but the Texans JUST KNEW Tramon Williams was a keeper. Thirty-two teams passed on Williams a grand total of 224 times in the 2006 draft. And then not a single team pursued him as a free agent for two months after his release. “But, man! Are the Texans stupid!” Lastly, its specious reasoning, at best, to assume any given player would experience the same results regardless of organization, coaching staff, and/or (defensive) system. Do you think Tramon Williams becomes a Pro Bowler had he gone to, say… the Bills? Or stayed with the Texans, for that matter? And I think the fact he did last as long as he did with the Texans at least paints them as having *some* clue as to his potential; they ultimately whiffed - but we should stop retroactively pretending like they released a first round pick. Undrafted free agents have the steepest of uphill battles. But he impressed enough to survive 3 cut-downs. They weren’t totally oblivious. Hows about this: Why don't you comb through the archives and find your posts ripping the Texans at the time for cutting this obvious diamond-in-the-rough stud. Otherwise, they’re not the first team to cut an undrafted free agent who went on to have success (Man! Those Jets are MORONS for releasing Danny Woohead! AMIRIGHT????) and they won’t be the last, and pretending otherwise is insincere, IMO. It was a mistake; but hard to jump too far down their throats for it. Every franchise has a story like this.
It is their job to recognize talent and potential. They failed here. Nothing wrong with admitting it and holding them accountable for it, especially when the secondary has performed like it has. (The Jets don't miss Woodhead NEARLY as much as we miss Williams) Stop polishing the turd and grab a pitchfork like the rest of us.
Well, I think Ric is right that *every* franchise fails in this manner more often than not. I realize I started this poop storm by pointing it out, but I was pointing out more in "bummer" mode than "look at those stoopid Texans" mode. This is always a funny phrase for me. I don't think McNair and Co. feel a lick of accountability to me, regardless of how many fits I throw on an Internet BBS or on sports radio, and regardless of how little I spend on the Texans (which, to date, totals $0.00). haha you can keep polishing that turd, but you'll never make it shine! :grin:
Man you sure like to get your ric-hating on. Every team passed on drafting future pro-bowler Tramon Williams. Every team has no excuse for blowing it. The Texans have shown an ability to develop offensive but not defensive talent. Kubiak deserves credit or one and blame for the other. Hopefully Wade will handle the defensive talent evaluation and development better.
Actually, more often than not, I agree with Ric. But I think that his jumping to the Texans defense here, without any kind of provocation, is pretty funny. It's not the end of the world to admit the Texans made a mistake here and let a talented guy go while retaining and acquiring garbage that invariably hurt their team. You can try to pass it off as "well yeah but so and so didn't draft em either!" (in regards to that, other teams have screwed up their drafts nearly as bad as we have either... so while they passed on him, the typically got something worthwhile in his place at least, unlike us), but the Texans picked him up, looked at him side-by-side with a litany of other turds in their own practices, and sent him packing. I'm sorry, I don't give out "nice try" awards for that. "At least they picked him up!" "He wasn't the FIRST cut"... etc etc... sorry, but bottom line is, they screwed up. Why someone would go so far out of their way to cover up for this failboat is beyond me.
Again, you're falsely assuming Williams would have developed the same under Frank Bush and David Gibbs - er, uhm (cough,cough)... the recently fired Frank Bush and David Gibbs - as he has under Dom Capers and his much more talented and experienced staff. IMO, that's a leap. If you REALLY want to rip the Texans, nail 'em for stupidly handing their defensive personnel over to inexperienced coaches. Not once but TWICE!!
Hell yes I am assuming that Tramon Williams would make the Texans better at cornerback. If you want to assume the opposite, be my guest. But that is a lonely club to be a member of. If I can rip the Texans for hiring inexperienced coaches, then I can rip the Texans for the dumb things those inexperienced coaches did, like cutting Tramon Williams.
Two quick follow-up points: 1) Isn't someone posting provocation enough? Should there also not be any fighting in the war room? justtxyank was among several piling on an-only-in-retrospect bad decision - I'm not authorized to dispute that? Come on. 2) I agree: They very obviously blew it. What I object to is this: First and foremost, that's not accurate. They pushed an undrafted rookie who showed promise out the door on the final cut-down. That's not an entirely different - and more accurate - perspective? And as pointed out several times, it may have remained inaccurate had he stayed here or gone somewhere else that didn't employ as good a defensive coaching staff as the Packers have. Fine to rip the Texans to a degree - but let's give the Pack some credit here, too.
Then, WADR, you don't know a heckuva lot about football because that completely dismisses the psoitive impact coaching staffs, veteran teammates and/or defensive systems can have on a player. Do you think Arian Foster is an All-Pro had he signed with Arizona? Talented guy, so yeah - its possible. But I think to assume the same development with a team that has proven incapable of developing even a decent running game is silly.
No, it doesn't. That would be like me saying that your stance completely dismisses Tramon William's own talent, which I know is silly and *not* what you're doing.
Sure debate and discussion is fine, but on something as cut and dry as this (there are tons of other issues that are more complicated and contentious than this involving the Texans), you trying to make it seem like it isn't, and doing your damnedest to cover up and excuse the Texans' mistake, is always funny. Yes, it is accurate. Tramon Williams is a Pro Bowler. The Texans cut him. Acc-ur-ate. Saying that they "cut an undrafted rookie" is being the Texans equivalent of basso, deliberately obtuse, pedantic, and misleading. It's like me saying that the Texans didn't beat the AFC South Champs in week 1 this year, but instead, they beat a team that was 0-0. "Perspective" my achin' arse... Kubiak and Co are paid to know and figure out who has the most talent and potential, they failed in that task in this case, and the actions of other players, coaches, or franchises does not and never will change this fact. I really cannot believe you are sticking to your guns and insisting that Tramon Williams would not make this secondary better (not even saying Pro Bowl, not even saying starting, just better than it was). You seriously want to anchor your argument to the worst secondary we've ever laid eyes on? That's what I call going down with the ship, hard.
