1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[OFFICIAL] Russell Westbrook as a Washington Wizard

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by Os Trigonum, Dec 3, 2020.

  1. DonatelloLimestone

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2021
    Messages:
    1,804
    Likes Received:
    1,959
    Russ alone had 11-10-6 and 0 turnovers in the 4thquarter.. If you watched it, he created every opportunity with beal out. The team without him would've been a 40 point loss.

    And of course, a pull up for the buzzer, we all wish he took it in went for the foul or get in closer. Hes made that shot a few times, not enough, but including for game winners and clutch shots and it would've been a legendary win against a 4/5 seed to take the record.

    Another hell of a game for Russ, its a bit hard to pin this one on him, you still need a team, and that team is close to terrible.
     
  2. DonatelloLimestone

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2021
    Messages:
    1,804
    Likes Received:
    1,959

    Yea, people take out the human element of this and anytime you go into competition there are other elements. No wonder MJ, kobe all speak of the mental aspect of the game, many bigs or trash talkers talk about intimidation. There are little nuances that allow separations in this sport.

    Its an odd thing, Beal has never been called a stat stuffer. Hes put up points, gone for the lead league, hasn't led to wins, yet no one says his production isn't meaningful. Thats what I mean where a narrative takes float, not to say there aren't valid criticisms of Russ, definitely are.

    But you made a good point about Fear. In fact Isiaih Thomas, bad boy pistons, talked about this as they brought up some of the critics of Russ. He said as any pg on the court sees there schedule and they see russ is on the calendar the next night, they know they are in for a long damn night, or if they see russ at the other end for tip off, they know they are getting bruised and battered, and you can't even take one possession of bc he is maniacal about his aggression, relentlessness be it the 40th game of the season or in the playoffs. You know you're in for a headache, they aren't thinking ok the advanced stats put him as an inconsistent shooter so I just can let up on him, Russ has made the pull up plenty, somehow he degressed when it used to be his bread butter shot. Hes made game winners from the 3. For any player, you want them to take that shot, but you can't sleep on russ. Not when he has the ball, not when he doesn't have the ball, not when hes driving and kicking, or if he skies in for the boards or anything.

    The attention he draws, like A.I. Like kobe changes the game plan and options for everyone else on his team.

    He plays many roles and last night was an example, in the 4th he showed brillians 11-10-6 with 0 turnovers and brought em back in a game and in a way very few could've. Almost each basket was a result of him. He missed the dribble pull up, it was a classic westbrook experience, I wished he took it in for the win, but he has made that shot to win games so its just not an exact science and hard to pin this L on him. They've had 3-4 games in this crazy run they've gone on where its been a matter of one possession, otherwise they may have hit like 18/19-1 or somethign that would have them playing among the top of the league and they are not a good team.
     
    JayGoogle likes this.
  3. DavidJuan

    DavidJuan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2021
    Messages:
    257
    Likes Received:
    234
    To be fair, Beal is a very efficient scorer. His 48.9 percent ranks fourth among shooting guards. Now, he probably should either work on his 3s, or not shoot them as much, because he shoots them poorly, (35.1 percent 42nd among shooting guards), but other than that, why shouldn't he shoot as much as he does?
     
    jiggyfly likes this.
  4. DonatelloLimestone

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2021
    Messages:
    1,804
    Likes Received:
    1,959
    but the idea of is it empty, is it leading to wins? Is he 'stat padding' Does he not shoot at the end of the quarters. I mean it wasn't a hit on beal, but more so this narrative of russ's rebounds becoming stat padding, his assist becomign stat padding. I've never seen a narrative take float like that. Russ makes one or two rim ins a game, and he is the type to shoot at the end of the clock then hes a 50 percent shooter. Its that subtle when you are 9-21 or so like russ. And its important, and a detail, but now its taken some sort of dogmatic approach to almost disregard him to where posters think he should be on the bench and deandre melton would fair better than him.

    Playeres pay attention to their stats, almost all of them. they may shoot less now knowing the wieght on them. If people could get boards like westbrook they would get paid big money and do it. but not many people are doing it, not many people in the history have done it. they pretend like russ is the selfish detrimental player in nba history. Its just a narrative gone too far, just likeb efore this season people were saying harden was holding us back and killed our culture. somethings get swallowed and passed too easily is my point
     
    JayGoogle likes this.
  5. DavidJuan

    DavidJuan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2021
    Messages:
    257
    Likes Received:
    234
    Well, yeah, it has gone way too far. If somebody says that Deandre Melton is better than Russ, they are either idiots or trolls.

    I'm fine with his rebounding, he is obviously one of the best at it, and even if he sometimes takes some from his teammates, so be it, they still get the possession. I'm fine with his assists too, he is an excellent passer. But he could cut down on turnovers by not trying so much to make the spectacular pass. Maybe he could strive to be a bit less entertaining but a bit more efficient with his passing. I mean, I'll take his assist to turnover ration anytime, but he could be even better if he cut down on his turnovers. And, I do think he would be better if he didn't shoot as much. His biggest problem is that he often seems to want to do too much himself, to always be everywhere, and especially when the game is on the line. And it does at times hurt the team. He's like the workaholic boss who controls everything and doesn't delegate, even when he should.

    As I said, if he played more in control and focused on his strengths, like CP3 does, he'd be better than CP3. As it is, I'd rather have CP3.
     
    #805 DavidJuan, May 11, 2021
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
  6. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,853
    You need to go back and read I am not the one who brought up Harden.

    I have no idea why you brought those other guys up and I really don't know why included CP3 with those other guys.

    Yes I do hold CP3 to same standard and i think he is an underachiever as well especially if he is considered the point god.

    How the hell do you consider Jordan, Lebron and Duncan playoff underachievers?

    You are making zero sense
     
  7. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,853
    When Beal had Wall they were not a straight lottery team they actually had better success than this team with Westbrook.
     
  8. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,853
    This.

    It's why you can't count on him in the playoffs.
     
    chadyang likes this.
  9. DonatelloLimestone

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2021
    Messages:
    1,804
    Likes Received:
    1,959

    Yea thats what I was getting at, the hyperbole of it has been deduced now to hes a bench player, useless, more negative than positive, detrimental to the team.

    I'd agree with you. I'd love it if he was more efficeint, and a better shot seletion, but in terms of delegating which in theory leads to better cohesion and basketball, who are you going to give it to in that roster to create and delegate. Its him and beal who are the creators. Hachimura has signs, but hes in his 2nd year, just finally developed a 3, Beltrans is an elite shooter, but watch the game westbrook spoon feeds him the ball. He almost has to create most of the possessions. And the main crituqes people have of him we witnessed right here in houston. When we played 4 out from the capela trade on, westbrook played the best on the team. Something like 30-8-7 on 50 percent shooting. I could see why he didnt have that luxury with Andre Robertson and Steven Adams on teh court. Spacing makes a big difference. And I'd probably take Paul if I needed to as well, but lets not forget in that case we're talking about a hall of famer 'point god'. As you can see in the previous post, guys are talking about taking deandre melton and dejonte graham. .even some of the solid players you talk about, its like his whole point is they don't make mistakes. Well I agree with that, but on this wizards team you need a catalyst, someone coming in making no mistakes with this squad is bottom of the lotterey especially in scotty brooks offense.


    I get you aren't saying that and coming from a more reasonable perspective. But all too often people are harping on what he can't do rather than what he does in an elite way that maybe no one in history can do. I'm not sure if we've seen someone top 5 i rebounds and lead the league in assists. Then to deduce it to stats and averages and not when its a game of momentum and a game of runs and we saw that yesterday, down 20 in the 4th. 11-10-6 with 0 tturnovers and everyones harping that he didn't take the right shot in the end and i agree, but they sort of are missing it all to give a steven a skip bayless yay or nay take. Thats my point, the narrative and the bar for westbrook now has become so polarize the objectivity essentially is gone.

    And as far as Cp3, I'd take him and I think he is one of the historic floor generals. thats not a slight on russ who I think is a hall of famer in talent and productivity too. they are both in the elite historic conversations yet one is viewed all too often as trash that should be on the bench, a empty stat padder that actually makes his team lose as if wizards would be better without him, with the ball in netos hands. ITs gotten a bit silly. I;;ve said time and time again there are very real criticisms of westbrook, but I'm not going to sweep the brush like its being done. I saw and hated how he lost us the playoff series, I also am not dumb enough not to include the context that he was coming off an injury and covid and his inability to contribute and goto speed and adjust cost us the series, I'm also not going to ignore that he carried us and adjusted his game more than half the season. Some people can't seem to do both and it maybe the twittter espn/tmz culture of having two guys duke it out for headlines on two different sides rather than intelligently evaluating the game like you are.
     
    JayGoogle likes this.
  10. DonatelloLimestone

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2021
    Messages:
    1,804
    Likes Received:
    1,959
    ESPN.com: Russell Westbrook has been averaging nearly 30 points, 10 assists and 10 rebounds per game for over a month now. You've put together similar stretches during your career. What do you think of what he's been able to accomplish?

    Larry Bird:
    Here's a young man that has had serious injuries -- bad knee injuries throughout his career -- yet every time he walks on the court, you know you're going to get 100 percent from him. He attacks, he's fearless and he plays the way it should be played, so I'm all for him. I hope he wins 10 MVPs in a row. I just love players that compete on a nightly basis and really take the challenge to their opponents.

    "George went on to say that Westbrook showed him how to raise his game up another level after he had already made four All-Star teams with the Indiana Pacers. Playing with someone who was better than him helped elevate his own game. "Honestly, it's the reason why I had the best season of my career playing with him because I can play with somebody like that. I don't care, people say 'oh he can't do this or he can't do that.' I can play with a m----------- who's going to leave it on the floor every night. It pushes me, it challenges me to play hard every night," George said.

    "Oladipo:
    he calls Westbrook a close friend and attributes some the success he’s enjoyed this so far this season to spending a year watching him.

    “I learned so much from Russ,” he says. “Just his mindset, how relentless he is, those are things I’ve definitely taken with me.”

    Beal:
    It's been so ironic, because from the beginning of the year before the trade [for Westbrook], there's always the misconception of Russ. He doesn't get along with coaches or his team. It's just all about 'Me, me, me, me.' It's the complete opposite. And, like, I love everything about him. He's a great character guy. And his approach to the basketball game is what helped me have the year I'm having. And it helped us turn the year around. His level of accountability, you want that. He pushes himself to levels that you don't even think exist. And to be on the other side of that playing against him for years and seeing, 'Oh, how's he getting triple-doubles every game? There's no way he's getting it.' To actually see that night in and night out. He has a different mode. And it's all [mental]. And you can't teach that. It's either you have it or you don't.

    But what I love about him is that he tries to bring it out of everybody. He tries to bring it out of the 15th guy. A guy who probably won't play that much. But when he gets that opportunity, he wants you to play exceptionally well. That's what I love about him. He just wants to win. He wants to be the best player he can be. He wants to uplift all his teammates. And that's one thing I stole from him is his mental approach to the game. I have a voice in my head and it's Russ saying, 'Keep going, B.' He's been terrific. I definitely tip my hat off to him because I can definitely see why he was MVP of the league.



    "“I think the biggest thing is just how Russell never relaxes on either end of the court,” Popovich said.
    “We know what he does offensively and how aggressive he is, but on defense, he’s like the ultimate utility infielder. He’s everywhere. He guards everybody. And he’s making decisions and getting steals, getting offensive rebounds at one end, getting defensive rebounds at the other. His motor is always going. He never lets up. Ever. And that’ll be a big lesson for Dejounte tonight.”


    "Then they cut back to Jordan. "Thirty years ago, that's me," he said of Westbrook. "The attitude, trying to prove myself, showing so much passion for the game of basketball. You see it in his play. You can tell he loves the game, he plays with energy and flair.""

    "
    Kobe singled out Westbrook as the player who reminds him most of himself:

    “When I turn on the TV and I watch players play, the player that plays with the same kind of emotion and grit and competitive intensity is Russell [Westbrook],” Bryant said of the All-Star guard. “Russell is going hard. Doesn’t matter who he is playing against, doesn’t matter what the odds are, he’s going, that’s a guy, he is going 110 percent every single time.”
    "

    [​IMG]




    CF: Westbrook is an empty stat stuffer, should be on the bench, detrimental to his team. Give me Delon Melon bc of the advanced stats i read.
     
    #810 DonatelloLimestone, May 11, 2021
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
    DavidJuan and JayGoogle like this.
  11. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2001
    Messages:
    29,254
    Likes Received:
    5,362
    Westbrook is a great player doing things that nobody else does. It is a real pity he jacks up so many 3s other than doing what he does best.
     
  12. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    50,145
    Likes Received:
    40,819
    I literally told you why. Because, I said like those other guys Westbrook raises the floor of his team.

    Umm...I don't? Read my post again.

    Because you're not reading my posts correctly, when you do, I think they make plenty of sense.

    Those were completely different teams, I'm comparing Beal by himself does not raise the floor of a team like Westbrook does. History shows that...and he's playing in a weaker conference.
     
  13. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,853
    Dude the fact that you think Westbrook deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as those guys means you don't have a clue.

    This s what you said.

    I brought up Jordan, Lebron, Duncan, because if we're going to start calling people who don't have consistent playoff success underachievers we're going to go after a lot of all-time great players then.

    Westbrook has vastly underperformed as opposed to those guys.

    Thanks for letting me know it's no use responding to you.
     
    BamBam likes this.
  14. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    50,145
    Likes Received:
    40,819
    I love how nearly every page is littered with people bringing up other players to have a discussion but you came after me for stating that Westbrook, a lot like Harden and other star players, raise the floor of bad teams. That literally all I said. I didn't say he raised it more or less, just that they both raise the floor LIKE other star players.

    You haven't been reading my posts have you?

    Again, in the context of the discusson WE were having, I refer to these guys because your standard seems to be those guys that dominate in the post season effortlessly. They are outliers.

    I did say this, glad we agree.

    I mean if all of our exchanges will be like this, the random insulting and down talking and trying desperately to get a 'gotcha' moment then that's fine with me.

    Harden fans more defensive than Harden himself getting offended you even put his name in a post with Westbrook...
     
  15. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,853
    When you get called out for saying stupid **** you people always come back to "Harden Fans" when Harden has nothing to do with any of this.

    Just shows what your agenda really is.
     
  16. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    50,145
    Likes Received:
    40,819
    My agenda? That's rich since you came in running with a steel chair to make sure I wasn't disrespecting Harden then tried your hardest to misconstrue what I've said even though I clarified it for you at least 3x.

    Instead of taking that clarification and either accepting that you read my point wrong or arguing the clarification, you then just tried harder to make it seem like I said what you imagined I said instead of debating what I've said.

    EDIT: And again, the random insulting and down talking came from YOU, not me.
     
  17. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,853
    Once again dude you were the one who brought Harden into the conversation not me and how is me pointing out actual facts swinging a metal chair?

    You did not clarify anything you backtracked when called out and now want people to ignore what you said..

    Anyway i'm done with you especially since you think using 3 of the greatest players ever makes Westbrook look good.

    Yeah you definitely have an agenda, man up and except it.

    Yeah i insulted and talked down to you because I don't respect you as a poster if you think bring up 3 of the all time greats gives cover to Westbrook.
     
  18. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    50,145
    Likes Received:
    40,819
    What point did you make that's a fact? That Harden could lead the Kings to a 5th seed? That's more of hypothetical that could be argued all day. Which is why I left it vague "They'd both raise the floors of bad teams to be mediocre" and no one else came at my post the way you did.

    How did I backtrack? I showed that you were trying to misconstrue what I've said. You know what I said and why I brought those guys up, I said it quite plainly, I bolded it, and instead of arguing that point you tried to make it like I said something else.

    My only agenda in this thread is arguing the point is that I think Russ doesn't get the appreciation he deserves from fans. He gets it from his peers though which I assume matters more to him anyway.

    My point was that if your standard is consistent playoff dominance, LIKE DUNCAN, JORDAN, LEBRON, then that is a high standard to set players to, most players do not dominate the playoffs consistently year in and year out. I bring up those players so that I can further clarify what I mean by that. If you judge being a winning player by consistently winning in the playoffs then that will put down a lot of players. Even superstars, even all time greats. Dirk and Nash all had times where they 'choked' or whatever the term is people want to use, do you want me to use lesser all-time greats to illustrate that point? Dirk's championship probably saved him from being known as the greatest choker ever, it took all that heartbreak though I think to finally push him to do what he did and lead that otherwise over the hill Dallas team to the promised land. Giannis is going through that right now, where people are questioning if he can lead teams in the playoffs...but he's still a great first ballot HOFamer, even at his young age.

    The point is Russ has had playoff failures, he has had playoff success too, but that's like a great many players outside the few top top tier all-time players. A lot of great players have playoff struggles because the playoffs are F-N hard. You go against talented teams night in and night out, there's no 2021 Rockets on the schedule to play around with. It's Kawhi and the clippers one round, the suns the next, or a gritty Heats team, or a Lakers team with Lebron. No easy outs outside of one or two teams and even those teams have a punchers chance.

    In the end, you can respect me or not, that's your choice. I sure as hell don't post for likes. I'd like to think that a basketball conversation...about a game...can lead to more cordial conversations though. We've had interactions before, I'd at least like to think you know I'm not some blabbering idiot, but hey if that's what you think, do you I guess.
     
    DonatelloLimestone likes this.
  19. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    37,911
    Likes Received:
    15,377
    That Westbrook averages 22, 11.6, and 11.6 and still has less than a 20 PER is just really weird to me.

    Is PER underrating him in this case?
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now